So Who Here Actually Buys Their Music?
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Subtone replied on Tue Jul 14, 2009 @ 2:50pm |
 Coolness: 34885 | I'm sorry guys, but this attitude of 'art should just be a hobby' is complete bullshit. Keep this up and there will be no entertainment industry left. The reality of the situation is that at every stage in the production process, costs are being incurred.
If your favourite artists had to stop making music professionally and get a 9-5, they wouldnt be able to dedicate anywhere near as much time as they did. Quality would drop dramatically to the point where people who actually have talent would be perceived as being on even keel with delusional fucknut wannabes. There would be no incentive to take it seriously enough to provide a quality product. In fact, music would no longer exist as a product and thus neither would the quality control associated with pushing said product. How about the recording studios, record labels, sessionists etc.. Without any return on investments, the whole model falls apart and everyone suffers, consumer included. You guys think it's possible to make the same quality and volume of work as say dubfire, hawtin, Noisia, deadmau5 and anyone else at the top of their game while holding down a 9-5 and doing music as a 'hobby just for the love'? Fuck off, just not possible. Anyone who disagrees with me does not realize how much hard work and determination it takes to make music to pro quality standards. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ufot replied on Tue Jul 14, 2009 @ 3:12pm |
 Coolness: 93095 | Originally Posted By SUBTONE
I'm sorry guys, but this attitude of 'art should just be a hobby' is complete bullshit. Keep this up and there will be no entertainment industry left. The reality of the situation is that at every stage in the production process, costs are being incurred. If your favourite artists had to stop making music professionally and get a 9-5, they wouldnt be able to dedicate anywhere near as much time as they did. Quality would drop dramatically to the point were people with any talent would be perceived as being on even keel with delusional fucknut wannabes. There would be no incentive to take it seriously enough to provide a quality product. In fact, music would no longer exist as a product and thus neither would the quality control associated with pushing said product. How about the recording studios, record labels, sessionists etc.. Without any return on investments, the whole model falls apart and everyone suffers, consumer included. You guys think it's possible to make the same quality and volume of work as say dubfire, hawtin, Noisia, deadmau5 and anyone else at the top of their game while holding down a 9-5 and doing music as a 'hobby just for the love'? Fuck off, just not possible. Anyone who disagrees with me does not realize how much hard work and determination it takes to make music to pro quality standards. I would agree with you, only that over the years, I've met many "delusional fucknut wannabes" that produce better if not at least on par music than said list of artists : dubfire, hawtin, Noisia, deadmau5. THey also produced their tracks without expensive " recording studios, record labels, sessionists etc.." while holding down 9-5 jobs! so what do you say to that? How can this be if they don't fit your model? Furthermore, are you really going to side with an industry that is synonymous with downright theft? Frankly, your assessment of current trends in music production seem dated and uninformed or at least slightly "delusional", but feel free to enlighten me further... I will not pretend to understand the complicated web of current production trends any further than my own personal experiences lend me to... Ufot-discourse, it is necessary to further understanding |
| I'm feeling broken in the heart right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Subtone replied on Tue Jul 14, 2009 @ 3:28pm |
| Coolness: 34885 | Originally Posted By UFOT
I would agree with you, only that over the years, I've met many "delusional fucknut wannabes" that produce better if not at least on par music than said list of artists : dubfire, hawtin, Noisia, deadmau5. THey also produced their tracks without expensive " recording studios, record labels, sessionists etc.." while holding down 9-5 jobs! so what do you say to that? How can this be if they don't fit your model? Furthermore, are you really going to side with an industry that is synonymous with downright theft? Frankly, your assessment of current trends in music production seem dated and uninformed or at least slightly "delusional", but feel free to enlighten me further... I will not pretend to understand the complicated web of current production trends any further than my own personal experiences lend me to... Ufot-discourse, it is necessary to further understanding Examples of your friends' music? As someone who has been releaseing vinyl on internationally distributed labels for 6 years now, I think Im a pretty good judge for what constitutes pro standard. I can comfortably assume bullshit tho. If your friends were any good, and as serious as those artists, theyd have a solid promotional skills, a contact/support network, and a catalog of work to back it up and no label would ignore that. Every industry is a pyramid scheme with ceo's, directors, and vps eating cake while compartmetalised crumbs trickle down to those involved in r&d, production or back-end. Im not here to brag, complain or comment about my own situation. I will say that, being in the position im in, talking to industry insiders every day, I have a pretty good grasp of what's going on. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ufot replied on Tue Jul 14, 2009 @ 4:21pm |
| Coolness: 93095 | I can list my friends and acquaintances who produce quality stuff, or you can find out what I'm talking about by browsing some artists even on this site... or groundzeroprojects or soundcloud or reverbnation or techtorrent or a million other sites that host thousands upon thousands of UNSIGNED artists who produce quality content. Furthermore, you must admit, as far as pro-standards are concerned, like any other genre, there are tons of artists that have published utter crap, so it does make you reconsider what that standard really is...
promotional skills = internet contact/support network = internet catalog of work to back it up = internet label=DYI or in some cases undesired If your inside knowledge leads you to understand that "Every industry is a pyramid scheme with ceo's, directors, and vps eating cake while compartmentalized crumbs trickle down to those involved in r&d, production or back-end" why would any new artist want a piece of that? Furthermore, why should artists continue to be ruled by that draconian system? The bigger question should be is it possible for an artist to emerge without the help of major labels? Is it possible to achieve "pro standard" without the aid of expensive hardware or technicians? Is it possible the industry is more interested counter spinning any of the above arguments so as to assert it's supposedly necessary hegemony? In North America(for the most part) electronic music will not get the same exposure as pop, be it urban or rock, it is a niche market(as I'm sure you are well aware), and it is precisely because of that that there are currently so many talented unsigned artists. Europe tends to set a different example, but obviously even the euro market has it's own limits. I can understand your desire to protect your product which is already on the market, frankly if it is on wax, then it is far more protected than if it is digital. But I feel what you are alluding to is that the current state of the music industry is one of a struggle for control of that which has been lost. Ufot-interesting discussion here |
| I'm feeling broken in the heart right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Subtone replied on Tue Jul 14, 2009 @ 5:05pm |
| Coolness: 34885 | Ive listened to plenty of unsigned and signed (to mp3 label) music on this site, and very rarely am I even slightly impressed. I get sent hundreds of tunes every month direct to my AIM inbox by producers drastically ranging in skill level. I hear everything from utter nonsense to top-of-the-game material, and trust me..the gap between producers who have signed a few vinyl releases and are just starting to make a name for themselves, to those who are at the top is massive. You can't get there without 100% dedication to the craft, and that means sacrificing almost everything.
Promotional skills = internet, professionalism and social aptitude Contact and support network = internet, professionalism and social aptitude catalog of work to back it up = 10 years of hard yards honing the craft (in most cases) label = Big fucking sacrifice and investment to diy properly There's a bit more involved than creating a myspace page and spamming people. Ill agree that there is plently of unsigned talent out there, but its clear to me that they dont work hard enough or make the sacrifices necessary to take it to the next level. 99% of them are cheap knock-offs of the people that inspire them within their own niche genre. The mentality of instant gratification has a lot to do with it, but that's another discussion all together. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» flo replied on Tue Jul 14, 2009 @ 9:12pm |
 Coolness: 146320 | We just don't have the same view of "quality", and probably nor musical tastes... as I explained, "professionalising" music doesn't guarantee a better quality at all; it can really worsen it, according to my standards. Of course the "production" would sound more professional, but this is just a minor aspect of how music appears to me.
The "industry", as you say, is exactly what destroys potentially good music, most of the time, to me. There are very few exceptions, but they don't justify the existence and the value of such a model, from my point of view. And this is true for bands as well as electronic music; the problem with electronic music is that releasing your productions on vinyl generally costs much more than self-producing your band and burning your own CDs... but even then, most people I know (and whose music I like) who produce vinyls get their money from something else than music. |
| I'm feeling phd powa !!! right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» fishead replied on Tue Jul 14, 2009 @ 10:15pm |
 Coolness: 75665 | Originally Posted By UFOT
yes, and it's easier to steal software than a mercedes? so your point is? Ufot-i would love a mercedes my point is that one of the reasons that the scene has dissolved over the past few years is that a lot of people think that kind words and a smiling face constitutes "showing support"... but without some sort of a return on their investment, a lot of artists will be forced away from production... and not just the bad ones. This isn't strictly a discussion about money, either... I'm talking about the investment of time. You can give back by helping to spread the word about a new artist, by talking to promoters at clubs about artists, or by asking about them when you go to stores... so that even if you can't afford the record, you've maybe helped a struggling artists get a gig, or sell a record to someone else. I mean, I've received more than my fair share of promos, and a number of artists regularly pass me material before it's released, but even when I'm not paying cash for the music, I still feel obligated to provide some sort of feedback about the material... and if it's material that I really like I'll go ahead and get a copy when it comes out, sometimes more than one copy. I've always made it a point to include track listings for all my mixes, and I've never, ever tried to keep any signature tracks a secret. My point is... what's happened to respect if the only thing that stops people from stealing is that sometimes it's hard? |
| I'm feeling new records right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» hardsteppers replied on Wed Jul 15, 2009 @ 4:04am |
 Coolness: 35555 | I think I might be one of the only people that still buys vinyl records on a weekly basis. Which I think is sad because hanging out at the record shop and hunting down those hard to find jems was a fun part of growing up as a DJ in the 90s. The truth is things change and as far as I can tell music is now free and having a career in dance music without being a touring DJ is impossible. With the internet the way it is right now there is no such thing as copyright or intelectual property which might be a good thing. I am a big william gibson fan and his vision of a cyberpunk future when information is free is here. It's a brave new world and I guess we all have to adapt to the times. I still enjoy collecting vinyl because it takes hard work to put a record together get it mastered and cut on vinyl... Getting distribution and promoting it. I also believe the medium is the message. So the question you have to ask yourself is what is the message you want to put out. It's a personal choice and I don't judge what others do. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ufot replied on Wed Jul 15, 2009 @ 11:16am |
| Coolness: 93095 | Originally Posted By FISHEAD
my point is that one of the reasons that the scene has dissolved over the past few years is that a lot of people think that kind words and a smiling face constitutes "showing support"... but without some sort of a return on their investment, a lot of artists will be forced away from production... and not just the bad ones. This isn't strictly a discussion about money, either... I'm talking about the investment of time. You can give back by helping to spread the word about a new artist, by talking to promoters at clubs about artists, or by asking about them when you go to stores... so that even if you can't afford the record, you've maybe helped a struggling artists get a gig, or sell a record to someone else. I mean, I've received more than my fair share of promos, and a number of artists regularly pass me material before it's released, but even when I'm not paying cash for the music, I still feel obligated to provide some sort of feedback about the material... and if it's material that I really like I'll go ahead and get a copy when it comes out, sometimes more than one copy. I've always made it a point to include track listings for all my mixes, and I've never, ever tried to keep any signature tracks a secret. My point is... what's happened to respect if the only thing that stops people from stealing is that sometimes it's hard? Fishead, I think I understand what you are pointing out, in the sense that it is disrespectful to play or own music you didn't pay for, at the very least, disrespectful to the artist. But that's making an assumption that the morality surrounding the artists release was intact. I'm not trying to open a heavy moral debate on the industry here, but rather trying to expand on notions of respectful representations of artists material. I fully agree that I have, and will continue to, support artists I believe in whether it's through money or my craft. I think the bigger question is: can a DJ still be respected if he doesn't feel any moral obligations about some of the artists he mixes? Furthermore, where does morality fit in to the internet? Is it any more immoral to post free videos than it is to post free music? If a VJ downloads tons of videos for their gigs without paying anyone(save perhaps their isp), do any of the videographers who posted the material get royalties or credit? Is the time people invest filming stuff of any less value than the time people spend recording or producing music? To me, this seems like an endlessly spiral-like debate. The internet, is without a doubt in mind, the single most important global tool created and utilized in our lifetimes thus far. It's seemingly inherent lack of a successful multipurpose moral code can most definitely be observed as permeating into our societies and throughout our cultures. From my point of view, the economic devaluation of art(audio or visual) caused by piracy and no-cost proliferation has the upside of enabling far more people towards endless creativeness that shows no signs of any of the classic medium boundries. So, is it better to make less money from art and have an endless fountain of creative people furthering their chosen meduims? Or is it better to make more from art and keep the community of artists and their mediums controlled or more structured through profit? I guess the answers to a lot of these questions become subjective in the end... kind of like personal tastes in music :P Originally Posted By hardsteppers
I think I might be one of the only people that still buys vinyl records on a weekly basis. Which I think is sad because hanging out at the record shop and hunting down those hard to find jems was a fun part of growing up as a DJ in the 90s. The truth is things change and as far as I can tell music is now free and having a career in dance music without being a touring DJ is impossible. With the internet the way it is right now there is no such thing as copyright or intelectual property which might be a good thing. I am a big william gibson fan and his vision of a cyberpunk future when information is free is here. It's a brave new world and I guess we all have to adapt to the times. I still enjoy collecting vinyl because it takes hard work to put a record together get it mastered and cut on vinyl... Getting distribution and promoting it. I also believe the medium is the message. So the question you have to ask yourself is what is the message you want to put out. It's a personal choice and I don't judge what others do. AMEN! As always Matt, you nailed it! I miss those days of hunting(u in the back of disquevelle), I still buy records, but nowhere near as often as I used to, and most of the gems I buy are from the past and not the present... Ufot-embrace change to better it's effects |
| I'm feeling broken in the heart right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy replied on Wed Jul 15, 2009 @ 12:17pm |
 Coolness: 106110 | When a dj plays songs publicly, for money, does he not have to pay royalty's to the owner of the copyright? Same as a radio station.
What legal/moral loophole permits dj's from forfeiting there legal obligation towards 2 of the the copywriter holders exclusive rights, by creating a derivative work, and by performing it publicly? ...Or is it just that nobody is looking? |
| I'm feeling no sleep till tuesda right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ufot replied on Wed Jul 15, 2009 @ 12:24pm |
| Coolness: 93095 | Originally Posted By DATABOY
When a dj plays songs publicly, for money, does he not have to pay royalty's to the owner of the copyright? Same as a radio station. What legal/moral loophole permits dj's from forfeiting there legal obligation towards 2 of the the copywriter holders exclusive rights, by creating a derivative work, and by performing it publicly? ...Or is it just that nobody is looking? good point, my assessment has always been that nobody is looking. I can only think of a handful of bars/venues that pay those types of royalties to SOCAM, but even then, I think it only applies to their satelite radio feeds and not their guest or in-house dj's. I've always thought that maybe it just was too hard to police those types of copyright laws, or maybe establishments just wouldn't comply? I'm pretty sure that if you are a registered artist with SOCAM that there is a system that applies fees on an annual basis which is supposed to signify your legal contribution, but I've never really inquired. How do you pay royalties on a white label? How do you pay royalties to a label that went under 10 years ago? I've never even been able to get a proper insurance quote on my vinyl collection, because how are you supposed to assess values according to current market demands on a record per record basis? Not to mention that most insurance companies don't even care, they just assign a blanket value... Ufot-the interest in a craft starts with emotion |
| I'm feeling broken in the heart right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Choda_Bean replied on Wed Jul 15, 2009 @ 1:21pm |
 Coolness: 219965 | Lunch break's over people.
How much time have you already wasted reading/posting in this thread expecting something to miraculously change? Get back to work... |
| I'm feeling like ezbake right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» MsShlee replied on Wed Jul 15, 2009 @ 2:36pm |
 Coolness: 50420 | Originally Posted By DJ_DIALECT
Lunch break's over people. How much time have you already wasted reading/posting in this thread expecting something to miraculously change? Get back to work... wanna make out ? |
| I'm feeling sleepy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Nathan replied on Wed Jul 15, 2009 @ 10:31pm |
 Coolness: 166540 | i agree with both sides of the discussion.. maybe i'm schizo? :p
maybe we need ppl who share free music, and we also need ppl who buy music. we need ppl who work hard at music for their whole life, and we need passionate ppl who do it for fun. we need good production, and we also need dirty raw sounds. we need both sides to make the entire thing move in the right direction, and for variety's sake. |
| I'm feeling you up right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy replied on Wed Jul 15, 2009 @ 11:26pm |
| Coolness: 106110 | ^ Wise words. You are a Zen Master |
| I'm feeling no sleep till tuesda right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Thu Jul 16, 2009 @ 12:46am |
 Coolness: 145195 | a society with the ability to freely appropriate the past to create new meanings will be culturally richer than one that restricts it... |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» rawali replied on Thu Jul 16, 2009 @ 8:07am |
 Coolness: 140680 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
a society with the ability to freely appropriate the past to create new meanings will be culturally richer than one that restricts it... culture don't pay the rent Update » rawali wrote on Thu Jul 16, 2009 @ 8:09am ...and neither do I
jokes aside, word of wisdom right here |
| I'm feeling lovely right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Omni replied on Fri Jul 17, 2009 @ 1:25am |
 Coolness: 87570 | Thanks to StumbleUpon, I found this picture on the web and immediately thought of this thread, so here you go guys:
Although as funny as this is, the general music industry and independent record labels are in two completely different worlds and have to face very different challenges. |
| I'm feeling yay right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Choda_Bean replied on Fri Jul 17, 2009 @ 4:45am |
| Coolness: 219965 | Originally Posted By OMNI
Thanks to StumbleUpon, I found this picture on the web and immediately thought of this thread, so here you go guys: 
 |
| I'm feeling like ezbake right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» flo replied on Fri Jul 17, 2009 @ 7:04am |
| Coolness: 146320 | hahahahhh :) |
| I'm feeling phd powa !!! right now.. | |
So Who Here Actually Buys Their Music?
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