Is The Underground Over ?
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Vegan replied on Sat Jan 24, 2009 @ 7:15pm |
 Coolness: 38785 | I agree strongly with databoy about stuff, especially about the fact that just because you are not "succeeding" in the music industry (i.e. breakcore artists) does NOT mean that you are not both brilliant and working/trying very hard. |
| I'm feeling dancing right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy replied on Sat Jan 24, 2009 @ 7:36pm |
 Coolness: 106130 | Music in and of itself isnt good nor bad.
Its the listener who decides. One persones "good music" is the others garbage. |
| I'm feeling love right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss replied on Sat Jan 24, 2009 @ 7:53pm |
 Coolness: 129735 | I dunno if thats true
In every music scene some artists are considered better than others. Usually a general consensus is acheived over time Personal taste should never affect your perception of what is good or not. If you claim you don't like a certain style of music its usually got more to do with ignorance of that style of music more than anything. You know like comments like "I don't listen to electro its too popular", "I hate dnb, its too fast", "Rap isn't music" etc... There's good music in every style. I used to hate jazz or latin music because I had a certain perceptiion in my mind that it wasn't my thing. Eventually one day sitting at Noize bored with everything I usually listened too, I sat down and started to seriously listen to different jazz and brazillian records, starting with those artists I'd heard were the most respected. Eventually I started to appreciate and like some of the songs and those styles. On the other hand bad music is easily universally recognizable. Its boring, its annoying, easily forgotten and most of all souless Update » Blisss wrote on Sat Jan 24, 2009 @ 7:59pm P.S. Intentionalsound, I wasn't saying all breakcore djs are untalented or lazy
It just seems most of them are either unwilling to sacrifice time on their corporate 9 to 5 jobs to do anything to start a scene (ironic) or make a lasting album I meant no disrespect to those who are actually heavily invested in the scene or make good music. The more breaks the better :) |
| I'm feeling like the good guy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Nathan replied on Sat Jan 24, 2009 @ 8:12pm |
 Coolness: 166560 | i just resent that somehow underground means unsuccessful...as if the artists in the movement have no ambition.
it's true that it's quickly become another shitty hipster buzz word, but those who live it as a ideology don't need to justify themselves to anyone, nor do they need to wear t-shirt sayin' "i'm so fucking under the ground" :P i also +1 the "trying hard to conform to non-conforming" :) ...and, like Mutante touched on, it's drained the punk scene of it's essence., and is doing the same to techno. But that's the nature of the modern music "industry"; trying to cash in on the coolness factor, selling an image. And we know that money ruins music (unless we're talking about buying gear :P ) and we know that every snot-nosed little rebel-wannabe will buy into it. And so you have a bunch of kids wearing the exact same 'i will not conform' shirt they all picked up at fuckin' X20 or whatever, and getting the latest in 'piss off mom and dad' technology, like Kid Rock CDs or some shit. not conforming to conforming to non-conformist by conforming doesn't get you anywhere either... So i guess the best is to adopt a "goes without saying" attitude, and just do your own thing... ...and bang.your.head! Update » Nathan wrote on Sat Jan 24, 2009 @ 8:14pm databoy has a point that some tunes are shit to certain people and vice versa...but it's true that there is a difference between what's good music and bad music...
i love a topic/thread where everyone is right :) |
| I'm feeling you up right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Vegan replied on Sat Jan 24, 2009 @ 8:29pm |
| Coolness: 38785 | Originally Posted By BLISSS
It just seems most of them are either unwilling to sacrifice time on their corporate 9 to 5 jobs to do anything to start a scene (ironic) or make a lasting album oh yes but but BUUUUUT it's very hard to keep yourself alive, let alone make music, when you have no food/place to sleep due to not making enough from your music. It's the classic heart breaking dilema of ...to die making music, or feed myself with traumatizingly non-music job? ...and heehee, yes N.a, the "industry", yes, let's all perpetuate this concept now, say it over and over and over until people think it exists!! XD times infinity. databoy, I see things from your perspective too, that music is in the perception of the individual. Let me re-say how I feel about the difference between "good music" and "bad music". Maybe I should call it "music with or without integrity" or something instead, meaning that there is some music that is created for the sake of creating music, and there is some music that is created for the sake of "I am a robot I do as I is told I am not a musician but a device of the so-called industry and all my base is belong to them and my music is soulless because if I put any soul into it then evidently it will not sell so all my base is belong to them and especially if I am female robot this is a porno vid not a music vid and nothing shall be said against the government or any guitars solos/complexity of any sort added OR ELSE". |
| I'm feeling dancing right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 10:59am |
| Coolness: 106130 | There are about a million reasons why music is good or bad. It is usually in determining what is good and what is bad that humans create the most conflict. |
| I'm feeling love right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ufot replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 1:21pm |
 Coolness: 93115 | Originally Posted By SLHSDFKDFHKSJHS
oh yes but but BUUUUUT it's very hard to keep yourself alive, let alone make music, when you have no food/place to sleep due to not making enough from your music. It's the classic heart breaking dilema of ...to die making music, or feed myself with traumatizingly non-music job? if you are unsuccessfull making a living off of your music, then perhaps you should consider getting a "non-music job", patience is the key to success, and though in an ideal world, musicians should be able to live off of their art, normally that isn't the case in the real world, at least not in the beginning... Ufot-sorry, but the starving artist retoric is so cliche and old... |
| I'm feeling haxin an milkin all right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» JasonBeastly replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 5:58pm |
 Coolness: 76725 | Originally Posted By BLISSS
I dunno if thats true In every music scene some artists are considered better than others. Usually a general consensus is acheived over time Personal taste should never affect your perception of what is good or not. If you claim you don't like a certain style of music its usually got more to do with ignorance of that style of music more than anything. You know like comments like "I don't listen to electro its too popular", "I hate dnb, its too fast", "Rap isn't music" etc... There's good music in every style. I used to hate jazz or latin music because I had a certain perceptiion in my mind that it wasn't my thing. Eventually one day sitting at Noize bored with everything I usually listened too, I sat down and started to seriously listen to different jazz and brazillian records, starting with those artists I'd heard were the most respected. Eventually I started to appreciate and like some of the songs and those styles. On the other hand bad music is easily universally recognizable. Its boring, its annoying, easily forgotten and most of all souless Update » Blisss wrote on Sat Jan 24, 2009 @ 7:59pm from 24.37.46.103 P.S. Intentionalsound, I wasn't saying all breakcore djs are untalented or lazy It just seems most of them are either unwilling to sacrifice time on their corporate 9 to 5 jobs to do anything to start a scene (ironic) or make a lasting album I meant no disrespect to those who are actually heavily invested in the scene or make good music. The more breaks the better :) You don't know me obviously, that's all I can say to that. Anybody who does can feel themselves welcome to check if any of that applies to me, it sort of cracks me up. I wouldn't dare try to list off all of my diverse influences for you, you might be somewhat confused here. I'm still not sure what the delineation was of your argument re Aphex Twin, I never said he didn't get publicity, but even with the IDM boom it failed to cross over to pop except in subtle ways. Spankrock, DJ Skrew, and various other pop and rap artists were influenced. But you still don't see the IDM "stars" from Skam or Warp in the mass media. BOC is also less popular than we would like to believe, they had a boom and now they're fading back into obscurity. Campfire Headphase was a strange and sort of disappointing album, and I felt it had a bit to do with them becoming such sleeper hits that when they got "big" they failed to continue to mystify with their strange ambience. Thing is Aphex Twin did wind up in major publicity, and a bunch of IDM posers got into him as a result, perhaps at a high point in his career but nonetheless somewhat clueless about the rest of those circles or exactly what he represented in terms of compositional techniques. So spare me the stupid arguments that hinge entirely on him as if he represents all IDM without any reference to Freeform, Jega, Bola, Luke Vibert, Phoenicia, Pan_sonic, Jake Mandell, Otto Von Shirach, Richard Devine, people who actually were quite important in turn-of-the-millenium IDM and the new sound. They make machines for Native Instruments now, and guess what, that winds up in all the electronic music we hear today. Is that "underground"? I wonder, it certainly isn't well known that many of the commercially-sold sample kits come courtesy of a lot of these artists. So now I wonder what you're trying to say with perception, and with your idea of Universal Absolutism, I mean, you're right at home in the 18th century. As we know, good taste, morality, and quality are a priori concepts of mind and are based on their Platonic forms. Makes good sense. Personal taste does not factor into criticism, that's a great theory. Oh and of course, I hate everything that isn't breakcore, that's a given. I despise it and I never listened to it. I never listened to music before breakcore came along, I didn't like anything before that, I thought everything sounded like bananas squishing against spiderwebs with unicorn bleats over it. And all I really ever do is start up Ableton Live and jizz all over it while playing an amen cut up to myself. Plus yeah, me I never do anything but work and I've never ever been involved in an anarchist freetekno scene. Not me, I just talk soulless music with my other bitchy friends and we never do anything partywise and wouldn't want to. It's too much work. |
| I'm feeling gwan bottirass right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» clown replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 6:12pm |
 Coolness: 221780 | When you reach the point of making music for a living, it usually mean's your not underground anymore. It's usually a sacrifice to the "soul" to provide the mass with "food".
When people write stuff like "i'm a professional DJ and pay my rent with Dj Money" it's either they are wedding dj's or they play more accessible music. When the end of the day arrives and they have to pay the rent, taking a booking for "just the money" is what is left to do. if not, how could they ? I mean, the artists who aren't mainstream have a hard time surviving, imagine the living juke-box playing their tracks!!! Music should be a hobby, not a job. !!! |
| I'm feeling white flaging right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ufot replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 6:12pm |
| Coolness: 93115 | Originally Posted By LUKEPERIL
You don't know me obviously, that's all I can say to that. Anybody who does can feel themselves welcome to check if any of that applies to me, it sort of cracks me up. I wouldn't dare try to list off all of my diverse influences for you, you might be somewhat confused here. I'm still not sure what the delineation was of your argument re Aphex Twin, I never said he didn't get publicity, but even with the IDM boom it failed to cross over to pop except in subtle ways. Spankrock, DJ Skrew, and various other pop and rap artists were influenced. But you still don't see the IDM "stars" from Skam or Warp in the mass media. BOC is also less popular than we would like to believe, they had a boom and now they're fading back into obscurity. Campfire Headphase was a strange and sort of disappointing album, and I felt it had a bit to do with them becoming such sleeper hits that when they got "big" they failed to continue to mystify with their strange ambience. Thing is Aphex Twin did wind up in major publicity, and a bunch of IDM posers got into him as a result, perhaps at a high point in his career but nonetheless somewhat clueless about the rest of those circles or exactly what he represented in terms of compositional techniques. So spare me the stupid arguments that hinge entirely on him as if he represents all IDM without any reference to Freeform, Jega, Bola, Luke Vibert, Phoenicia, Pan_sonic, Jake Mandell, Otto Von Shirach, Richard Devine, people who actually were quite important in turn-of-the-millenium IDM and the new sound. They make machines for Native Instruments now, and guess what, that winds up in all the electronic music we hear today. Is that "underground"? I wonder, it certainly isn't well known that many of the commercially-sold sample kits come courtesy of a lot of these artists. So now I wonder what you're trying to say with perception, and with your idea of Universal Absolutism, I mean, you're right at home in the 18th century. As we know, good taste, morality, and quality are a priori concepts of mind and are based on their Platonic forms. Makes good sense. Personal taste does not factor into criticism, that's a great theory. Oh and of course, I hate everything that isn't breakcore, that's a given. I despise it and I never listened to it. I never listened to music before breakcore came along, I didn't like anything before that, I thought everything sounded like bananas squishing against spiderwebs with unicorn bleats over it. And all I really ever do is start up Ableton Live and jizz all over it while playing an amen cut up to myself. Plus yeah, me I never do anything but work and I've never ever been involved in an anarchist freetekno scene. Not me, I just talk soulless music with my other bitchy friends and we never do anything partywise and wouldn't want to. It's too much work. BwAAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHA... zOMG, luke u get +9000 pnts for that post UFOT-luke, u are an exceptional individual |
| I'm feeling haxin an milkin all right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 6:15pm |
| Coolness: 129735 | Disagree completely with you Clown
I've been making a living from djing for the past 10 years Promote underground music every week, helped build both the breaks and electro scenes in this city Its something I'm extremely proud off Its not a job, its an occupation I love Can't be any more real than that |
| I'm feeling like the good guy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» JasonBeastly replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 6:25pm |
| Coolness: 76725 | Originally Posted By BLISSS
Disagree completely with you Clown I've been making a living from djing for the past 10 years Promote underground music every week, helped build both the breaks and electro scenes in this city Its something I'm extremely proud off Its not a job, its an occupation I love Can't be any more real than that We all know you're proud of it, that's for sure. We also know that you really hold your accomplishments close to your heart. But you're still a douche. |
| I'm feeling gwan bottirass right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 6:36pm |
| Coolness: 129735 |  |
| I'm feeling like the good guy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» clown replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 7:20pm |
| Coolness: 221780 | okay Bliss, i'm glad you disagree. now that you've taken yourself as an example, let's all try and understand "how" you make a living with music / djing.
what are your weekly gigs ?? how much do you get paid for them ?? is Dj'ing your ONLY source of income ? (please, don't mention the past, lets talk about the future) !! you can't get more than, 100$'s for a weekly at Saphire's and i don't think dj's can get more than 50 - 100$ for anything breaks / electro related (okay, maybe a whopping 200$ if your lucky enough to find a place that works really well).. last i checked your bookings, you don't play at Club Opera every friday and saturday nor are you a local at any after-hour club (where a dj can potentially get paid well on a weekly basis) .. please let us know.. (btw, the jazz fest isn't underground, nor is piknik) !! --- in other news, lets take some real examples of artists with success who have sold out to make money. Metalica is the first that comes to mind, Infected Mushroom is another. When these guys saw an opening, there music changed and became much more simple and less of "What got them there". (don't say that's called evolution please cause that's BS).. Today, they have enough money to "return to the source" (thank god) but not everyone get's that chance. |
| I'm feeling white flaging right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Holly_Golightly replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 8:38pm |
 Coolness: 158750 | |
| I'm feeling hitched right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 8:52pm |
| Coolness: 129735 | Originally Posted By CLOWN
please let us know.. (btw, the jazz fest isn't underground, nor is piknik) !! Clown You're part of "techno fm" thats the official broadcaster of Picnik lol...are you saying techno fm isn't an underground station or are you saying picnik is a crappy commercial event? I do lots of private parties, bigger events & club nights on a weekly basis, I generally market myself as one Montreals most versatile djs. Breaks and electro are only 2 styles of music I am known for. Which means I actually know music not just a commercial subgenre of electronic music called Techno (although I know techno too)...which also means I get booked a lot I never have to compromise my music or my style, always promote GOOD music & if you book me I will rock your party. I can make between $1,000 to 2,000 a month as a professional dj sometimes more. Its very hard work, not something I would recommend for a "hobby" dj, however if you want to be a "real" dj, go for it Anything else you wanna know? |
| I'm feeling like the good guy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Nathan replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 8:56pm |
| Coolness: 166560 | Originally Posted By CLOWN
in other news, lets take some real examples of artists with success who have sold out to make money. Metalica is the first that comes to mind, Infected Mushroom is another. When these guys saw an opening, there music changed and became much more simple and less of "What got them there". (don't say that's called evolution please cause that's BS).. Today, they have enough money to "return to the source" (thank god) but not everyone get's that chance. good point! and that brings up an interesting question: why do bands who make non-accessible music start making pop-type shit after they start selling millions of albums? Why don't they stick with "What got them there" if it's what got them signed or whatever? I don't get it. They sacrifice creativity for production quality and the music they make no longer appeals to the fan-base that got them to where they are...why can't hey continue making heavy or dark or dirty tunes if that's what made them infamous?! yeah, i realize i just asked the same basic question 4 different ways :P And yeah, you can't make a living in "underground" DJing (in MTL - 'cause the promoters just don't really pay you much), but you can if you balance it out with other gigs, or another job. DJing is still work. Wen you love DJing and producing as much as i do, it's not a hobby, it's a lifestyle :) Not saying you don't love DJing Vinny, but it's more of an obsession for me :P Update » Nathan wrote on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 8:58pm bliss, i don't think vinny cares if it's commercial or not, don't think he sees piknik as crappy 'cause it's not entirely "underground" :) |
| I'm feeling you up right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 8:59pm |
| Coolness: 129735 | Originally Posted By N.A
DJing is still work. Wen you love DJing and producing as much as i do, it's not a hobby, it's a lifestyle :) Not saying you don't love DJing Vinny, but it's more of an obsession for me :P Exactly na, agree 100% Its the same for me except I just put in more hours djing than producing You can make a living from playing underground music in Montreal BTW, you just need to be versatile, have some skills and be willing to work hard I do it every week, so do guys like Jordan Dare and other "real" djs in this city who put their money where their mouth is (Na included) |
| I'm feeling like the good guy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Nathan replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 9:10pm |
| Coolness: 166560 | but if you're making that much money, aren't you now a pop-star? :P ...lol |
| I'm feeling you up right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss replied on Sun Jan 25, 2009 @ 9:18pm |
| Coolness: 129735 | I'm just a dj Na & trust me I don't dj to be famous
I just enjoy it and I enjoy giving people a good time |
| I'm feeling like the good guy right now.. | |
Is The Underground Over ?
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