Occupywallstreet
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» flo a répondu le Wed 26 Oct, 2011 @ 1:45pm |
 Coolness: 146340 | |
| I'm feeling the flow right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Holly_Golightly a répondu le Wed 26 Oct, 2011 @ 2:17pm |
 Coolness: 158750 | Originally Posted By MURDOCK_ROCK
Regarding the CNN link... I got a friend who lives in the neighborhood where this happened, and apparently these protesters that got gassed aren't protesters at all... It's a group of Berkley anarchists who have been using the protest as an excuse to beat and rob ppl, so the city was forced to shut down the occupation a few days ago to avoid further violence, ppl just wouldn't leave... Messed up. totally agree w/ you.. the word in these occupations and protests is to not be against the police or military but to include them in the 99%! i think it is the only way the demands could be made and done.. wer're not yet in a tyranny so the whole violent coup thing is really retarded. .. but when i see some of the police praying and being harsh with protesters isssh :( |
| I'm feeling hitched right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» flo a répondu le Wed 26 Oct, 2011 @ 2:35pm |
| Coolness: 146340 | [ www.occupypolice.org ] :) |
| I'm feeling the flow right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Wed 26 Oct, 2011 @ 2:50pm |
 Coolness: 145215 | kick out the facilitators, down with the consensus model.
oppose the wreckers. tax bay street one percent on all securities. |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» flo a répondu le Wed 26 Oct, 2011 @ 3:11pm |
| Coolness: 146340 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
kick out the facilitators, down with the consensus model. What else do you suggest? The facilitators are anybody willing to be; you can be the facilitator tonight if you want to, and we can decide to replace him/her whenever we feel like it. So far, in 10 days, they have (almost) never been the same people. I think this "almost-consensus" vote by direct participative democracy is the only legitimate and viable system. Majority excludes too many people (up to half of them, minus one), anarchy just yields chaos (a single ill-intentioned person suffices to wreck everything), and most other forms of so-called "democracy" are either dictatorship or oligarchy/aristocracy. |
| I'm feeling the flow right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss a répondu le Wed 26 Oct, 2011 @ 3:17pm |
 Coolness: 129735 | OK RECAP TIME
Has anything been accomplished so far? |
| I'm feeling sunshine right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead a répondu le Wed 26 Oct, 2011 @ 3:27pm |
 Coolness: 685605 | Originally Posted By BLISSS
OK RECAP TIME Has anything been accomplished so far? Cardboard, sharpie and patchouli perfume sales have skyrocketed. |
| I'm feeling like a drama magnet right now.. | |
| Good [+2]Toggle ReplyLink» flo a répondu le Wed 26 Oct, 2011 @ 4:28pm |
| Coolness: 146340 | The gathering in itself is already an accomplishment.
Its self-organization, the way it preserves its values, freedom of speech, power to each individual, are unique wonders in History. A new (temporary?) society is born and in 10 days (or 5 weeks in NYC) it is still building itself, growing stronger everyday. Many people have been awakened, from the industry worker spending all of its time in front of its TV to the trader/banker, even reminding jaded former activists that there were still things to fight for and hope that the struggle has the power to change things eventually. Disinformation and misinformation are being seen through more and more, by educating ourselves. Many government officiers, from the municipality to the police, have begun supporting the movement. Many people have discovered (or remembered) that peace, love, unity and respect are real values that anybody can share once they set their mind to it; and I'm not talking about carebear rainbows and raving unicorns here, of course it's easy to exaggerate and make fun of this, but even the deepest cynical jaded nihilist is still able to feel that these values have an amazing power. Whether the movement ends up collapsing or not, directly changing the system or not, it will still remain in History as a massive international uproar, enabling a few cities (such as Montreal) to experiment a new genuinely democratic laboratory. Having hundreds or thousands to fully agree on how to change the system is close to impossible; thus, it takes time to think smartly, together, about what to change in small steps, and how to apply these steps. Proposals start converging. If breaking something is easy, repairing or rebuilding it is often much more difficult. |
| I'm feeling the flow right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Holly_Golightly a répondu le Wed 26 Oct, 2011 @ 9:27pm |
| Coolness: 158750 | wow flo!
vraiment inspirant tout ca! ca me rappelle la fin de Germinal de Zola.. quand a la fin quand les mineurs retournent au travail il y une analogie a propos des semance de la revolution qui vont germer// etc.. :) ps: bhahaha @ screwhead.. it's true at some point i could smell it arrgggg |
| I'm feeling hitched right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy a répondu le Wed 26 Oct, 2011 @ 10:12pm |
 Coolness: 106130 | Originally Posted By BETTY_HAZE
totally agree w/ you.. the word in these occupations and protests is to not be against the police or military but to include them in the 99%! i think it is the only way the demands could be made and done.. Bingo! Originally Posted By flo
Many people have discovered (or remembered) that peace, love, unity and respect are real values that anybody can share once they set their mind to it +1 |
| I'm feeling bump right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» flo a répondu le Thu 27 Oct, 2011 @ 12:10am |
| Coolness: 146340 | C'est pas mal ça Gen, on plante des graines pi on attend :D |
| I'm feeling the flow right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Thu 27 Oct, 2011 @ 7:23am |
| Coolness: 145215 | Originally Posted By FLO
What else do you suggest? The facilitators are anybody willing to be; you can be the facilitator tonight if you want to, and we can decide to replace him/her whenever we feel like it. So far, in 10 days, they have (almost) never been the same people. I think this "almost-consensus" vote by direct participative democracy is the only legitimate and viable system. Majority excludes too many people (up to half of them, minus one), anarchy just yields chaos (a single ill-intentioned person suffices to wreck everything), and most other forms of so-called "democracy" are either dictatorship or oligarchy/aristocracy. i just think we should ditch the consensus model, it's too easy to subvert, concerning the facilitators, i just don't think it should be about the ins and outs of some process a la Gelder-Luce (he wrote that book called 'Consensus' which a lot of this general assembly stuff is based on) What we need is an organic political process that elevates people like you to positions of authority based on political criteria. It should be an open process, and it should be majority rule (i think) with the rights of the minority respected. I feel like i should be clear about a few things... I don't see OWS as a 'cathartic' experience where what we are really after is the 'experience' of living during and being part of a revolution. No, we have serious work to do, we have things to accomplish. Even something small like getting Glass-Steagal back in force in the states would be a phenomenal accomplishment. Something like the 1% sales tax on securities or student loan amnesty is going to be really hard, and we need to fight like hell to make it happen. But the point is we have to fight, too much now is riding on OWS if we don't succeed then we are headed for dictatorship, this is the transition to Bonapartism, it's not Hitler yet but it's getting there think Brunning in the 3 years before the Nazis took over. For our time think of general Petraus on a white horse in a few years (he's now currently director of the CIA). we need to think hard about what the demands for occupy Canada should be, what are we doing for as many segments of society as possible, what are you doing for: Old people, Farmers, industrial workers, students, service workers, minorities, this movement can't be just a vehicle for every persons cause celebre. It has to be about the things that are going to ensure the survival of our civilization, this is why the 1% sales tax is so important because if we don't get this and start doing a little damage to them, well Wallstreet will rule the world forever... One thing i cannot underline enough is the idea that either the nation states will put the zombie banks through receivership (bankruptcy) or the zombie banks will destroy the nation states, and then the city of london and wallstreet will rule over a ruined world. One thing that has become clear to me is that 'too big to fail' is an abomination, it is literally a sin against nature. i just think we need a political process that both elevates leaders and gives us demands (cause the two are really inter related) as i have said on many occasions i will work with anyone who wants to oppose the power of wallstreet, regardless of their ideological position (socialist, liberal wtv) so what are our demands? lets try to think hard, i have one to break the ice, 'no more bailouts for canadian banks if they are insolvent let them go down. You wanna play the derivative game, then if you get burned you re on your own... can anyone else come up with a demand? |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy a répondu le Thu 27 Oct, 2011 @ 11:13am |
| Coolness: 106130 | Tobin tax
Abolish tax havens |
| I'm feeling bump right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» flo a répondu le Thu 27 Oct, 2011 @ 11:33am |
| Coolness: 146340 | Basdini, I'm not sure I get your point about how to reform the current voting process of Occupy Montreal: you would want a kind of election of representatives who would reach official and legal authority within the "outside world of politics"? If that's the case, it would be trying to kill fire with fire, by using a political process somehow identical to the so-called democracy in Canada and most other countries. Moreover, how do you suggest these "chosen ones" would reach this position of authority?
To clear things up, we're not using 100% consensus, but rather a minimum two-thirds to discuss a proposition, and a little more than that for it to pass if no "strong blocks" appear; somebody raising a "strong block" means they totally oppose and would leave the movement otherwise, so this leads to a deeper discussion and possibly an amendment, then a last vote is issued for checking whether most people would still pass the proposition despite the people strongly opposing or not. Many propositions have passed without a block so far, and many other have been sent to be reworked (possibly in a committee) because of too much hesitation. The only blocks I've seen so far just lead to refusal of the proposition because too many people were blocking. Having a majority vote (i.e. half+1) "respecting the minorities' rights" is close to impossible to apply, to me, because there would always be forgotten people, and most of the time, no one can represent your rights as much as yourself. Glass-Steagall may be nice, but since it has been over-advertised by LaRouche's people, who have harrassed and offended many people on site trying to steal the mediatic image of the Occupy movement, we're taking precautions with this. Rather, we're trying to come up with our own regulations about speculation; the difficulty being that some want a 1% tax, others want the Robin Hood (à la Tobin) tax of 0.05% (this Saturday's march will support this, which is supposed to be discussed at G20 in Cannes), while others want to forbid speculation on goods like food, clothes, etc. or even to forbid any kind of speculation. Forbidding the bailouts has already been mentioned too. You should join the Economics and Demands committees to discuss all this. You may also directly bring it to a general assembly, but be prepared to have to rework your demand because most people would not understand or agree on some details. |
| I'm feeling the flow right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Thu 27 Oct, 2011 @ 8:28pm |
| Coolness: 145215 | Originally Posted By DATABOY
Tobin tax Abolish tax havens let's all call it what it really is a 'securities transfer tax' or a 'wallstreet sales tax', we should all try to call it the same thing, not that Databoy is wrong to call it a tobin tax, it's just nobody seems to know who tobin is so it's not that [ useful...ca ] it the Robin Hood tax is no good either as it has negative connatations... our tax should be 1% on all securities, but even at one percent it could generate 100s of billions (perhaps trillions) of dollars of revenue, which shouldn't go to the imf or the world bank but rather split, half to the local gov half to the national gov (so for the states say half to the state of new york and half to federal gov) i would love to join you guys but i am a little far, so for now i can't, but i'll keep supporting the movement as much as i can... |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+2]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy a répondu le Thu 27 Oct, 2011 @ 8:55pm |
| Coolness: 106130 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
let's all call it what it really is a 'securities transfer tax' or a 'wallstreet sales tax', we should all try to call it the same thing, not that Databoy is wrong to call it a tobin tax, it's just nobody seems to know who tobin is so it's not that [ useful...ca ] it the Robin Hood tax is no good either as it has negative connotations... I'd call it the "One Percent Tax" |
| I'm feeling bump right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Fri 28 Oct, 2011 @ 11:40pm |
| Coolness: 145215 | supposed to be a big day to day especially in NYC...
let us know betty |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Holly_Golightly a répondu le Sat 29 Oct, 2011 @ 4:09pm |
| Coolness: 158750 | it's snowing here/// which is really rare at this time of the year. i wonder how they're doing..
i didn't return at the square since they arrested people and all.. it's really bad idea w/ my status.. i pass nearby because my boat ride is at pier 11.. there's more people also around at night.. teh financial area is so dead usually.. i have a good view on 2 bridges and the financial district and downtown brooklyn from my house i could tell pretty fast if something bad would happen.. with the helicopters usually.. |
| I'm feeling hitched right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Nathan a répondu le Sat 29 Oct, 2011 @ 4:13pm |
 Coolness: 166560 | Originally Posted By BETTY_HAZE
it's snowing here/// which is really rare at this time of the year. i wonder how they're doing.. i didn't return at the square since they arrested people and all.. So, they started arresting people .. damn, my paranoid friend was right! xD But seriously, that blows |
| I'm feeling you up right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Holly_Golightly a répondu le Sat 29 Oct, 2011 @ 4:34pm |
| Coolness: 158750 | not sure in nyc.. but elsewhere yeah they arrested peeps// |
| I'm feeling hitched right now.. | |
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