Faith And Fate
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 12:01pm |
 Coolness: 339785 | god 'gave' us freewill?
how about it was merely our evolution that dictates our ability to do as we want.. did god give all other animals freewill, or just humans? cause last i checked it seems like all animals, bugs.. hell anything living.. does as it wants.. yet god doesn't want their faith? psshh.. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» little_sarah replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 12:05pm |
 Coolness: 121560 | whoooooo caressss? |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Atrix replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 12:12pm |
 Coolness: 55410 | Ian, you're more complicated than that. Animals don't have the same kind of will as humans. They are subject to their drives.
You look at an eagle soaring and you wonder what it's thinking. "It's so free. Majestic. It flys and has none of my worries of paying rent, interpersonal relationships, a job...." The Eagle, translated, is thinking "Where's the FOOD! Sweet fuck I need to find FOOOD!". Perhaps it was evolution that gave us our perception. Have you studied biology, organic chemistry, quantum physics, astrophysics, or anthroplolgy? |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 12:23pm |
| Coolness: 339785 | That's just cause they're brains aren't as advanced as ours.. but it still gets to choose, "do i go right, or left".. "do i eat that rat, or that one".. etc. free will doesn't just mean being able to believe in something or not..
it covers everything. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Violence_Inc replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 12:26pm |
 Coolness: 174210 | as atrix said... animals have no free will, they purely function off instinct.
Last time i checked i didn't see a monkey stop eating cause it was fatter than the other monkeys. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 12:35pm |
| Coolness: 339785 | hahahaha
and how do you know a dinkey has never done that? you cannot assume to know what a donkey is thinking, can you explain why some animals like certain people and dislike others? or have good days and bad days? |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Atrix replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 12:36pm |
| Coolness: 55410 | I'm speaking as someone who has a B.Sc in those subjects. My father is a veterinarian. My brother is a biological researcher at the National Research Council. Animals do not choose the way humans choose. Choosing left or right for an animal is still getting something to eat. Usually the difference between right and left for an animal is a function of physical distance or opportunity.
The proof is classical conditioning as demo'd by Pavlov. Animalas run on pure stimuli. Humans are the only specias that can make such choices with a single exception: dolphins. Dolphins are the only animal that seems to function in a pattern similar to humans. They have sex for pleasure, and can grasp language. They can also deny their drives in certain conditions. Not even the great apes can do that. Fuck, I know many humans who can't do that. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Atrix replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 12:45pm |
| Coolness: 55410 | Animals that can like or dislike are merely responding to cues given by the person themselves. Remember that animals don't have language so most of their communicative ability is drawn from visual, olfactory, and other sensory conditions. Animals sensing "evil" on a person are probably relying on eye contact, posture, and the same social structures that they use to determine social status within their species. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 12:50pm |
| Coolness: 339785 | Animals don't have language?
uhhhh........ |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Atrix replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 12:53pm |
| Coolness: 55410 | They do not. They communicate. Do you talk with the animals Dr. doolittle? ;) |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 1:09pm |
| Coolness: 339785 | I know a LOT of people who talk to their pets and other animals.. then you'd say "oh well they don't understand what your saying.. well.. how do you know? you tell a dog to fetch, and it will..
funny thing, how do you know babies can think? you can talk to them all day and they'll just gurgle and stare back at you.. much the same way any other animal would.. there's a certain egotistical nature among humans to think they're so damn special as a species.. for a long time we thought our planet was the entire universe.. then we realized that wasn't the case.. but instead earth was the center of the universe.. now we know better, but still keep rather high regard for ourselves.. i mean the concept that a god created the entire universe and beyond.. just for us.. well all i can say is that in a couple hundred years humans will finally see past all this crap and finally realize we're not as special as we think and that god does not actually exist. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Atrix replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 1:50pm |
| Coolness: 55410 | Thank you for bringing up babies! That's almost the perfect example of my point. Babies don't understand. You emerge from the haze of your infancy into your childhood where you develop reason. We're talking about Piaget and Vygotsky now, no new territory. The first stage is the breaking in of your senses when you start learning how to use them. This is followed by the recognition of sensory patterns (faces, noises, smells). After a while of responding exactly trhe way an animal would respond we begin to remember and it is the development of memory that brings us language. We initially use language to convey our base needs. Gotta eat, gotta poop, like, don't like. Those are the major conversations at the beginning of our lives. It isn't until we learn how to reason and learn to think about how we think (metacognition) that we truly emerge from adolescent savages into refined humans. It is our ability to reason that makes us Human. Animals (and indeed most humans) lack the ability to reason. Fetching and verbal commands are merely conditioned responses to stimuli such as voice, or the act of throwing. A dog's instict to chase will make them follow the stick, or car, or mailman. But it is the element of a reward such as a treat that trains them to bring it back because there is no instinct to retrieve an object for the owner. Training doesn't count as intellectual learning. Even plants can be trained if you consider the arts of horticulture.
I agree that humans over estimate their importance, but I'm fairly certain that evidence provided by early childhood development and abnormal psychology that even rational humans are few and far between, and that animals are in fact still lower down on the reasoning ladder. I also think that assuming god is a human-like entity is innaccurate and arrogantly human. God is a word attached to that which we do not understand and cannot control. People that pray to any god are simply trying to impose human-like control on elements out of our realm of control. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» beercrack replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 2:33pm |
 Coolness: 71555 | the answer my friend is blowing in the wind |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Violence_Inc replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 2:38pm |
| Coolness: 174210 | Originally posted by DJNEOFORM...
I know a LOT of people who talk to their pets and other animals.. then you'd say "oh well they don't understand what your saying.. well.. how do you know? you tell a dog to fetch, and it will.. If you've ever taken a class in psychology you'd know what classical conditioning is. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Plan-C replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 2:42pm |
 Coolness: 62710 | Originally posted by VIOLENCE INC....
as atrix said... animals have no free will, they purely function off instinct. Last time i checked i didn't see a monkey stop eating cause it was fatter than the other monkeys. I watched this movie in human evolution class once. it was about these chimps - like the whoel family and little clan or tribe or whatever you call their group. anyways polio infected their enclave and so some of them started dying, including our protagonist, this mother chimpanzee. her spoiled son, (spoiled cuz she loved him too much and was one of the higher ranking) got so depressed when she died that he stopped eating, and starved himself to death in a tree. i'm not sure if that attests to their intelligence... but i think it says something about free will. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Plan-C replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 2:51pm |
| Coolness: 62710 | on second thought... maybe that wasn't free will.... maybe that was just a whole lot of stupidity since mommy didn't teach him to wipe his own ass |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Wed Jun 23, 2004 @ 12:01am |
| Coolness: 339785 | Originally posted by VIOLENCE INC....
Originally posted by DJneoform...
I know a LOT of people who talk to their pets and other animals.. then you'd say "oh well they don't understand what your saying.. well.. how do you know? you tell a dog to fetch, and it will.. If you've ever taken a class in psychology you'd know what classical conditioning is. that is by far the most convincing argument i have yet to hear. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Wed Jun 23, 2004 @ 12:04am |
| Coolness: 339785 | Originally posted by @TRIX...
I'm fairly certain that evidence provided by early childhood development and abnormal psychology that even rational humans are few and far between, and that animals are in fact still lower down on the reasoning ladder. lower down the ladder.. meaning.. an .. E.V.O.L.U.T.I.O.N... ? Sorry to say, but god and evolution.. really don't mix. Originally posted by @TRIX...
I also think that assuming god is a human-like entity is innaccurate and arrogantly human. God is a word attached to that which we do not understand and cannot control. People that pray to any god are simply trying to impose human-like control on elements out of our realm of control. well sure, if you wanna call the big bang god, go for it.. me on the otherhand, i'll stick to calling it "inevitability".. it's funny, so many people want to debate god and try to prove it's existance.. i find a much greater mistery is the concept of 'time'. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Hhm replied on Wed Jun 23, 2004 @ 2:07am |
| Coolness: 56135 | hey...i talk to my cat...hes fucking smart...he listens to me..really..
and i dont give him treats...never... |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Violence_Inc replied on Wed Jun 23, 2004 @ 11:08am |
| Coolness: 174210 | ... |
Faith And Fate
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