The Tea Party Coloring Book For Kids!
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» raisinlove a répondu le Wed 29 Sep, 2010 @ 12:48am |
 Coolness: 63165 | Basdini, we have always agreed in the past but I want to know: you do realize that you are already living in a socialist country, right? It might not be perfect but we are waaaay better off than most of the planet. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Wed 29 Sep, 2010 @ 1:12am |
 Coolness: 145415 | $222 billion debt in 2010, that is the price of socialism [ www.iedm.org ]
one day probably not too far in the future all of this is gonna end, we are going to run out of money that we can take from other people, then we re gonna pay the price, services are gonna be cut and taxes are going to go through the roof, you can already see it happening when they talk about bringing in user fees for the health care we already pay for through taxes, they backed off [ www.theglobeandmail.com ] next time they won't because now the idea is out there... but none of this matters to socialists, if a program is worth having then it's worth bankrupting the country over it... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy a répondu le Wed 29 Sep, 2010 @ 1:13am |
 Coolness: 106330 | Dont confuse the price of corruption with the price of socialism |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Wed 29 Sep, 2010 @ 1:16am |
| Coolness: 145415 | seems like the same thing to me, always about creating some massive program that is inefficient and expensive so some bureaucrat can have a job pushing paper,
IT'S A SOCIALIST PARADISE |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» LeChat a répondu le Wed 29 Sep, 2010 @ 7:32am |
 Coolness: 115750 |  |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Masa a répondu le Wed 29 Sep, 2010 @ 10:22am |
 Coolness: 158985 | You guys are going to extremes again.
Social democracy (i.e. center-left) CAN work, and it does --> [ en.wikipedia.org ] |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» DynV a répondu le Wed 29 Sep, 2010 @ 12:15pm |
 Coolness: 109020 | basdini if you grew up in Quebec or Canada, you had tremendous privileges compared to other, somewhat centrist, countries. if you're one of the lucky ones that put a lot more in the system than it gives back to you, perhaps you could consider the societal impact and how it affected your environment. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Wed 29 Sep, 2010 @ 1:44pm |
| Coolness: 145415 | privileges, what privileges, you mean the privilege to be taxed into oblivion on every pay check???
"you could consider the societal impact and how it affected your environment" that's just what i love, someone forcing me to be charitable, for the leftist if something is worth doing then it is worth forcing others to do it too, can't let people decide what to do with their own money, they are just too stupid to figure it out themselves. Ask your self, if socialist policies like universal health care are so wonderful why do we have to compel people by force of law to contribute to the system? three hour wait times to see a doctor without an appointment and 1 year waiting lists for a family doctor, for the amount of tax you pay you should get a glass of champagne when you walk through the door and a handjob before you leave. the quality of care isn't terrible but for the price you pay it's not worth it. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy a répondu le Wed 29 Sep, 2010 @ 4:45pm |
| Coolness: 106330 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
the quality of care isn't terrible but for the price you pay it's not worth it. Wouldn't the smart thing for you to do be to move to some island or some banana republic where you could REALLY get your moneys worth without having to help anybody out? Cus I guess civilization is way to expensive for you. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» DynV a répondu le Thu 30 Sep, 2010 @ 2:28am |
| Coolness: 109020 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
people decide what to do with their own money, they are just too stupid to figure it out themselves. So obviously you had an amazing upbringing and have an elite POV & support system so when you finished you education your mind was so greatly shaped that all ensuing decisions couldn't be better than the first? People change their mind, learn from observation (if they're very wise) or mistakes and get to know better with time. That's why laws are generally put in place by people that have reached a certain age or are exceptionally smart. There would be much more crime & misery there would be if not from the SOCIALISTS and how much less the average level of education would be if not from the SOCIALISTS. I get we've been paper pushed out of misery. @.@ (sorry but this site rolleyes emoticon  doesn't cut it) |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Thu 30 Sep, 2010 @ 11:19am |
| Coolness: 145415 | i was being sarcastic, i think that's what socialists believe, people are too stupid to make their own decisions, that's why (according to them) we need to tax them to contribute to programs like health care, if i don't want to be part of a program why can't i opt out and not participate, that's not an option, why?
it really comes down to what you believe the role and function of government is, if you think that government exists to make you happy or to make your life better by solving all your problems for you then, I don't know what to say to you...We disagree so radically that i don't think we can ever agree, I think the government has one job: protecting my liberty, that's it. I don't believe in economic rights, i don't think you have a right to post secondary education or healthcare, why would you, why would you have a right to someone else's services? Look how completely different that kind of a right is to something like freedom of speech or freedom of religion, I don't take anything from anyone to get those... anyway i don't expect to win this argument with you guys, most people in quebec are very committed to these kind of ideas of socialism and statism, it's very lonely being me, but it's ok i didn't take on these ideas to be popular... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Niji a répondu le Thu 30 Sep, 2010 @ 11:32am |
 Coolness: 70430 | For socialism that actually works: let's get Norway to take us in. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» raisinlove a répondu le Thu 30 Sep, 2010 @ 12:58pm |
| Coolness: 63165 | Putting aside the fact of how things actually happen and how they were intended to happen, government is suppose to serve the people. A nation as a collective, is too vast for every individual to take into consideration everyone. For instance, we all first look out for ourselves. Then (if we're not completly selfish/retarded/evil) we look out for immediate family. Beyond the family, our caring becomes more diluted and we can't put as much energy in people who are unrelated as those who are, without any sacrifices. That's why groups become "collective individiuals". Collective individuals are operated by a selection of their members and are tasked with caring for all the members within. This is how we work as social animals. Everyone contributes so that those who are less able to provide for themselves can enjoy this social security. It is also reassuring for those who provide well for themselves in case they lose their ability to do so. The best example is our elders who cannot work anymore. In other cultures, families care for their elders. In our society, these people can at least count on some help from the government to survive.
Of course such a massive system is hard to manage and people make mistakes or cheat the system, but the overall result is an era of security and comfort that we wouldn't otherwise enjoy in a lawless Mad Max world. |
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| Good [+2]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy a répondu le Thu 30 Sep, 2010 @ 4:48pm |
| Coolness: 106330 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
it really comes down to what you believe the role and function of government is, if you think that government exists to make you happy or to make your life better by solving all your problems for you then, I don't know what to say to you...We disagree so radically that i don't think we can ever agree, I think the government has one job: protecting my liberty, that's it. I don't believe in economic rights, i don't think you have a right to post secondary education or healthcare, why would you, why would you have a right to someone else's services? Look how completely different that kind of a right is to something like freedom of speech or freedom of religion, I don't take anything from anyone to get those... anyway i don't expect to win this argument with you guys, most people in quebec are very committed to these kind of ideas of socialism and statism, it's very lonely being me, but it's ok i didn't take on these ideas to be popular... So far you have stated that you are against health-care,welfare and free education, but how about the other stuff our taxes pay for like the army and cost guard, the police and prison system, courts, judges and the whole legal system, firemen, roadwork and bridges, sewers and fresh water, economic stimulus for company's, grants and guarantied loans to businesses, elections, research and development... Would you get rid of those also? One of the reasons why our socialist system is failing us on many points is that the governments don't govern for the good of the peoples anymore, but to help corporations make more and more profits, in spite of the needs and wishes of its population. Blindly believing that by giving money to the rich, the rest of society will profit, but nothing could be farther than the truth. It actually digs the ever growing trench between the rich and the poor. Neo liberalism/conservatism has been dictating on every tribune for the past 30 years that by deregulating the economy the average Joe would have more money in his pocket but in fact, the only peoples that really profit from those measures are the richest peoples in society, the top 2%. Even Jesus had the wisdom to acknowledge the hopeless selfishness of the rich. "...it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" -Luke 18:24-25 On the good side, in view of the recent economic crashes, it is our socialist system that has saved us, so to say, from an even worst outcome. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Thu 30 Sep, 2010 @ 8:47pm |
| Coolness: 145415 | Originally Posted By RAISINLOVE
but the overall result is an era of security and comfort that we wouldn't otherwise enjoy in a lawless Mad Max world. nobody is calling for anarchy here, the government exists to protect people from fraud and enforce contracts, so the government has a legitimate role to play. socialist never seem to get that for the economy to work properly losers have to lose and winners have to win, socialism seems to think that we should reward loser and punish winners, (ie. bail out and welfare for losers and excessive taxation for winners) all this does is distort risk and send the message that there is no cost to making bad choices. But i guess you can't expect socialists to get the idea that to be free (truly free) you have to be responsible for your actions, they seem to think that you can be free but don't have to be responsible when things go badly Originally Posted By databoy
So far you have stated that you are against health-care,welfare and free education, but how about the other stuff our taxes pay for like the army and cost guard, the police and prison system, courts, judges and the whole legal system, firemen, roadwork and bridges, sewers and fresh water, economic stimulus for company's, grants and guarantied loans to businesses, elections, research and development... Would you get rid of those also? One of the reasons why our socialist system is failing us on many points is that the governments don't govern for the good of the peoples anymore, but to help corporations make more and more profits, in spite of the needs and wishes of its population. Blindly believing that by giving money to the rich, the rest of society will profit, but nothing could be farther than the truth. It actually digs the ever growing trench between the rich and the poor. i never said i was against health care what i am against is forcing people to participate in something they don't want to be part of, I think it's really crucial to understand that you can't operate a socialist system like this without, coercion, you have to back it up with the force of law, if you don't then people will not want to be part of it, again, if it's so morale why do you have to force people to participate? The answer to this is gonna be something like 'well it's for your own good', my answer to this is 'you know better what's good for me then I do?', socialists will respond to this by saying 'well it's for the good of all of society' my answer to this will then be 'so the good of the collective comes before the rights of the individual?' If you use this same reasoning the state then can take my internal organs and kill me if it's going to save ten other people (the good of the many before the rights of the individual), this reasoning always leads to tyranny the exact opposite of liberty. There have to be things that the state can't do even if it will create good, certain things have to be inviolable. i think it's interesting that you call it 'free' education, it's not free, it's paid by taxes, but socialists don't seem to understand that there is no free lunch in life someone has to pay for it. like i said before we aren't going to agree on this, I don't believe in wealth redistribution, and i believe in property rights pretty strongly, I suspect you guys don't believe in those things as strongly as i do anyway what's left to argue about, you have what you want, a massively inefficient bloated socialist state in quebec, what difference could it make what i think, oh right somebody is speaking out against the orthodoxy, that simply can not be tolerated, |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» DynV a répondu le Thu 30 Sep, 2010 @ 9:27pm |
| Coolness: 109020 | basdini I thought we had different POV but I now see it's simple selfishness, next when people start stealing for food as they starve or workers do a stage-in to be paid (for what they already worked for), you'll be the first one howling in the streets to have police "do their job" and that they bring "peace" into your area then you'll applaud at their body count after they've "pacified" the area. why do you even care what I write, the only worthy humans to you must like you, fuck them if they could have no opportunity even with more effort than you give and fuck them even more if they had potential but doesn't have the consistency to make as much effort as you do, they can just starve to death! |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss a répondu le Thu 30 Sep, 2010 @ 9:33pm |
 Coolness: 129935 | Originally Posted By LECHAT
Hahaha... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Thu 30 Sep, 2010 @ 10:11pm |
| Coolness: 145415 | Originally Posted By DYNV
basdini I thought we had different POV but I now see it's simple selfishness, next when people start stealing for food as they starve or workers do a stage-in to be paid (for what they already worked for), you'll be the first one howling in the streets to have police "do their job" and that they bring "peace" into your area then you'll applaud at their body count after they've "pacified" the area. why do you even care what I write, the only worthy humans to you must like you, fuck them if they could have no opportunity even with more effort than you give and fuck them even more if they had potential but doesn't have the consistency to make as much effort as you do, they can just starve to death! all i can say is 'wow'. anyone who disagrees with a socialist is selfish, right i forgot that part, stealing is wrong, stinking your hand into someone else's pocket so you can give to other people is wrong too cause it's stealing as well. no one has to work if they don't want to, you can lie in the gutter and drink Lysol floor cleaner all day long if you want to, that's your right but you don't have a right to demand things when the consequences of your actions are returned to you, if you make bad choices you have to pay for them, again that's what it means to be free. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy a répondu le Thu 30 Sep, 2010 @ 11:46pm |
| Coolness: 106330 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
I think it's really crucial to understand that you can't operate a socialist system like this without, coercion, you have to back it up with the force of law, if you don't then people will not want to be part of it, again, if it's so morale why do you have to force people to participate? The answer to this is gonna be something like 'well it's for your own good', my answer to this is 'you know better what's good for me then I do?', socialists will respond to this by saying 'well it's for the good of all of society' my answer to this will then be 'so the good of the collective comes before the rights of the individual?' If you use this same reasoning the state then can take my internal organs and kill me if it's going to save ten other people (the good of the many before the rights of the individual), this reasoning always leads to tyranny the exact opposite of liberty. There have to be things that the state can't do even if it will create good, certain things have to be inviolable. Coercion... hmmm what do you mean by coercion? You where lucky enough to be born in social democracy, for the better part of your life you got to profit from the system without paying any taxes and now 10 years into your contributing life, you decide that you want out. Well the good news is, seeing as you come from one of the rich socialist country's, you can chose to live anywhere on earth. Cus freedom to travel and move wherever you want seems to be an other side effect of socialism. So how has this "coercion" played out for you? Any of your family or friends in jail for non-payment of taxes? BTW, your little comparison between organ harvesting and socialism is totally bogus cus an other cool thing we have in socialist country's like Canada that render that scenario impossible is a charter of human rights. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Fri 1 Oct, 2010 @ 1:15am |
| Coolness: 145415 | if you don't pay your taxes you will be fined and they will expropriate your assets (bank accounts, house, car) that's coercion dude, no other way to cut it
i admit the organ thing is extreme, but it's meant to be, it's supposed to illustrate the point that even if something has a result which does a lot of good it doesn't necessarily mean that it's just, as Hayek says "If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion." anyway looks like you don't have much of an argument Databoy when you re basically saying if you don't like it you can leave... just for fun see if you can find yourself on this, you fit the bill of several of these guys... 
let's try to have a serious discussion, make the case for socialism as you see it in as strong of terms as possible, convince me, why is it just how can it work in the real world? |
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The Tea Party Coloring Book For Kids!
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