Is The Underground Over ?
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss a répondu le Tue 20 Jan, 2009 @ 6:29pm |
 Coolness: 129710 | I agree with you there
There's so much arrogance in the dj world (in particular) its sickening I'd say Cocaine is a big culprit, but still people should learn to keep their egos in check My 3 cents |
| I'm feeling like the good guy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy a répondu le Tue 20 Jan, 2009 @ 6:30pm |
 Coolness: 106105 | I remember when an opinion was just 2 cents.
Now those where the days... |
| I'm feeling love right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Nathan a répondu le Tue 20 Jan, 2009 @ 8:53pm |
 Coolness: 166535 | the underground: it's what you want it to be
(my half a cent:P) |
| I'm feeling you up right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» diss0nance a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 12:22am |
 Coolness: 48495 | great discussion, very polite for one of those topics that always seems to create an unresolved argument
good interview too... tho the tone is kinda annoying. "To me, there's no star in the underground, stardom opposes to underground. In the underground the link between the artist and its public is stronger, I think. As basdini said it's also the whole DIY attitude that makes ungerground underground..." hellz yeh for me... underground rave music and parties are those created without the objective of mass consumption or profit... experimental sounds/styles/events and supporting friends/artists who create them. is it over? I don't think so, but there are a lot more people reproducing the same ideas than there are those coming up with new ones. also... IMO this woman Cozy in the interview hits it right on... the lack of purity, or even complete inability to totally "drop out" of mainstream lifestyle/culture, and the friction between conflicting or opposing actions and ideals within both individuals and groups has been for me the biggest issue I've experienced in the freetekno scene - which became my chosen title "dissonance". this internal conflict brings the word hypocrite around quite often in these discussions and debates. it's apparently impossible for anyone to be a purist about anything anti-capitalist/DIY/anti-corporate/anti-establishment living in the society we do. stuff costs money. we are saturated with wants/needs/ideas that fight against collaborative anti-profit efforts. and the political motivations are nearly completely beaten to death from every angle or most have generally given up and politics became just casual hobby discussions or a 5 letter word (aka "drama"). not many people are into working through the complications of interpersonal dynamics for a common goal and have just giving up and rather avoid it because really there's more frustration trying to create an alternative, than there is going with the flow of mainstream. IF they havent also given up their art/experiments, they have chosen to work in small closed groups. it's not over, it's changed. and the definition will always change too. people continue to surprise me with totally amazing shit and I doubt they will stop - or not just "the underground" is doomed, but humanity as a whole. quote from the interview "you only understand if you are physically there... it cannot be substituted..." indeed |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» WhiteLight a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 1:09am |
 Coolness: 50370 | The thing is that most of the time, these people who drops out of the mainstream lifestyle usually get stuck with another pre-made lifestyle. Rare are the people who drop out to truly be themselves. |
| I'm feeling the bass right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 11:01am |
| Coolness: 106105 | The pressures to conform are very strong, even in the underground. |
| I'm feeling love right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Holly_Golightly a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 11:58am |
 Coolness: 158725 | there's always been people recreating a style or a school than more bringing a unique new way of thinking in art or any other component of our external life as human being in society...
i don't see it black or white. i think it is def. a grey area. i think art is in constant evolution.. you can copy a school of thought in music or paint or sculpture etc... and bring a components or a single new thing to it.. like in hc techno music 4 example.. when producers get together on a internet forum for discussing precise way of producing let say.. a superpowerful kickity ass kick.. many of them are producing under the same style, the same "school".. they are experimenting with many "machines" and filters etc.. some will maybe produce something familiar to your ear as style but there;s more to it.. a new style of melodies mixed w/ each other... use of music instruments very marginal for that precise genre.. cadence very unfamiliar to your ear...etc anyhow.. producing art is very much a social action... also when you observe history art there's patterns and there were very long moment in history that were stagnant because maybe of the stability of the society of that precise moment in time.. for example the french beaux-arts and the academic style was so there for soooo long. there;s has been moment in history which brought up reaction in human actions and new/evol. way of thought. we as humans are products of society in what concern what exceed physiological capacity.. therefore the underground is a product of society. anyhow art is so interactive. people take it and assimilate it all in their own way maybe because of their knowledge on art.. well in fact probably only because of the consequences of their particular social locations in their society.. |
| I'm feeling hitched right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Turtle a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 12:39pm |
 Coolness: 68295 | the best is this i was playing at a after party where i was approached ( while i was playing some nice house not too hard after a hard nite) Can u play Tiesto???????????????????? WTF is that?
The after party where i was playing i went to the party the nite before and it was dark underground where it was only promoted by word of mouth , the venue was dark, older peeps and music hard core and wow great crowd...over 500 peeps were there i couldn't beleive it..... |
| I'm feeling lostallhope right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» JasonBeastly a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 1:20pm |
 Coolness: 76700 | It's funny how the first people to say that the underground is over are usually the ones who suddenly realize all their tastes have become mainstream. They weren't ever really looking for something underground, they were trying to catch trends usually before they exploded, and then they feel crappy when everyone has heard of what they're into, when everyone has the resources to research further and inform themselves better.
But the underground lives on. If you are truly looking for it. It's a matter of how badly you want novelty rather than popularity. Because let's face it, what most people on this thread are talking about is something that once was, rather than what currently is. Many underground music scenes exist, but if you're over-mediated you might get the idea that they don't. No magazine or trend analyzer will be able to declare the death of something that is counter-cultural to begin with. It is your duty, it is sorry, our duty to keep delving further away from mass culture and to stop trying to be the most popular person playing the most popular music to the most popular people. That by definition is pop. Underground culture consists in novelty and experimentation. People who are not afraid to be different, to go against the grain. You can decide to be an innovator, or a follower who whines that "c'est pas comme avant". It's all a matter of what you choose to believe in. So no, the underground is not dead. You just didn't dig deep enough. |
| I'm feeling gwan bottirass right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 2:05pm |
| Coolness: 129710 | I understand your logic and its a great post, I agree 100%
I started playing more electro and breaks because those were "underground" styles in the 90s. No one was playing "electro" back then, believe it or not, except outside a few breaks or idm parties or the more "alternative" nights. Then both styles became more popular, electro more so than breaks granted, but it didn't mean I was gonna stop playing either. You stick to what you like at the end of the day, whether its popular or not. Second point is that by your logic the following styles are no longer "underground" Dubstep -) been around for ages, has been heavily mediatised, has been played at big more mainstream events. Techno -) became popular in the early 90s, became very mainstream at the end of the 90s (which is why I was never big into techno) DNB -) very popular in the 90s, heavily mediatised, has even been used in tv commercials for over a decade) Trance and house are definitely mainstream The only stuff I know right now thats still pretty "underground" is the acid house stuff, the hardcore stuff, the experimental stuff and AMBIENT music. No one plays ambient anymore. So I still think it all comes down to good music vs bad music at the end of the day. |
| I'm feeling like the good guy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» diss0nance a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 3:25pm |
| Coolness: 48495 | "therefore the underground is a product of society."
absolutely. and right now people are possibly the most apathetic, hopeless, depressed, lazy, bunch of selfish cunts as we've ever been. why would anyone want to possibly upset anyone or rock the bubble? wasting all our energy convincing ourselves everything is ok. taking very little risks. not trusting anyone... don't risk your expensive gear... don't throw a "bad" party... don't make "bad" music... I remember when Venetian Snares was at the Elmo in Toronto a few years back and it was totally sold out and crowded at the start of the show... half way through his set I turned around and noticed half the room had left. They came cuz they knew the name or for good promotion, but then left when they heard what he plays. maybe he was in a bad mood, or maybe he did it on purpose... it was pretty brutal. rocked my socks. but the reviews were not all good, but those who loved it defended it with teeth. there is still a good breakcore scene in Toronto... some of the most brilliant music I've ever heard. I'm not sure if it's underground or not... whatever. anyhow good news is Toronto's best promoter of "bad" music just moved to Montreal. ;) |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» recoil a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 3:31pm |
 Coolness: 86495 | Originally Posted By LUKEPERIL
But the underground lives on. If you are truly looking for it. It's a matter of how badly you want novelty rather than popularity. You can decide to be an innovator, or a follower who whines that "c'est pas comme avant". It's all a matter of what you choose to believe in. So no, the underground is not dead. You just didn't dig deep enough. I agree with much of what you have to say Eric - except for a couple points that i quoted above... novelty does not mean underground, nor does it mean good or bad. it means it's new. and how many people can truly call themselves innovators? much more realistic for them to say they are doing their own thing. that's good enough. I dont care how underground someone says their scene is - it's still going to have plenty of producers and DJs playing "follow the leader". I agree about being an innovator - but such people are rare. the reality is, not many are actually strong enough to stand alone, which a truly independent thinker must sometimes do to me, it's about being on your own tip, and doing what you love.. regardless of whatever *anyone* else might have to say. no compromise, no sell out. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» WhiteLight a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 3:59pm |
| Coolness: 50370 | Originally Posted By BLISSS
Second point is that by your logic the following styles are no longer "underground" Dubstep -) been around for ages, has been heavily mediatised, has been played at big more mainstream events. Techno -) became popular in the early 90s, became very mainstream at the end of the 90s (which is why I was never big into techno) DNB -) very popular in the 90s, heavily mediatised, has even been used in tv commercials for over a decade) Trance and house are definitely mainstream The only stuff I know right now thats still pretty "underground" is the acid house stuff, the hardcore stuff, the experimental stuff and AMBIENT music. No one plays ambient anymore. So I still think it all comes down to good music vs bad music at the end of the day. Well, in my opinion, Dubstep is not yet completely out of the underground. I'd say it "is getting out" of the underground, right now. Most of the people, even in the rave seen, never heard it on a real sub-system, or didn't even heard the word "dubstep". It got out of the underground in England, and is slowly gaining popularity everywhere else at the moment. Never heard it before I actually heard it in an underground rave somewhere in BC, and even then I didn't know what it was. And...I'm kinda wondering what you mean by "been around for ages". However, I don't mind seeing it getting more popular. As long as it reaches people from everywhere who can bring new sounds. Same with every music. As long as it's good, I don't care if it's underground or not. Not sur if we could call Hardcore "underground" though. (But I'd have to agree for experimental and ambiant, not sure about acid house since I don't know shit about it). |
| I'm feeling the bass right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Turtle a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 4:08pm |
| Coolness: 68295 | Originally Posted By RECOIL
I agree with much of what you have to say Eric - except for a couple points that i quoted above... novelty does not mean underground, nor does it mean good or bad. it means it's new. and how many people can truly call themselves innovators? much more realistic for them to say they are doing their own thing. that's good enough. I dont care how underground someone says their scene is - it's still going to have plenty of producers and DJs playing "follow the leader". I agree about being an innovator - but such people are rare. the reality is, not many are actually strong enough to stand alone, which a truly independent thinker must sometimes do to me, it's about being on your own tip, and doing what you love.. regardless of whatever *anyone* else might have to say. no compromise, no sell out. well said Liam... My 2 cents, i have been around a long time and been to alot of great parties. Underground i love but my definition of underground is diffrent than who i am speaking to at the time. My definition of underground. It's sort of like this: when i first started going pout there was this guy who threw a party every 3 months in a diffrent location everytime! All he did we pass out flyers and word of mouth from friend to friend to friend this is what i was told when i decided to go to the first party of his. I was told that this is an older crowd since i was young at the time so to be aware. I was with 2 friends one guy who knew the other that was throwing the party and was a part of the party as well, as he guided me into the party i was blown away at the entrance no securityy only some taking the cash and checking the coats, as he guided me more i entered the main room which was like a pit of about 3-4 hundred of sweaty dancing smiling faces dancing hard core to this great House music light flashing as he guided me more we went to the chill area where we found more people about another 2-3hundred ina chill area where loung music was playing and people were massaging and using all these diffrent types of gadgets to trip... I was blown away....U know what the fucked up part was it seemed to me that everyone knew everyone. then i met the guy who throws these parties and he explained to me that throwing parties like this is awsome, everyone knows everyone, we just don't invite whoever we invite peole who r respectful and that u would want to enter your home! I didn't see any security just as he said everyone looks out for everyone, i never saw anything like that again not because my style or my taste of music has changed i just don't see anyone doing parties like this anymore. I will be drawn to anything associated to house music it is what is the foundation of music to me!!! That is uunderground to me in a place where not alot of peeps know about with peeps who know one another great pumping blaring house music and flashing lights peeps high as a kite but not so much that they get sick or weird just pure plain repsect for one another and their space and their trips....No one drugging anyone just fun where the dj actually plays for the people and will go hours cause he/she knows that they r appreciated every second he or she is in that booth playing his or her heart out....And he or she doesn't need to stand with arms stretched out and ask for appreciation the appreciation is there already, where no one is in the bathroom or in the dj booth everyone is on the floor.....Where there is and energy over thr crowd i could go on but i not going to THAT TO ME IS UNDERGROUND haven't see it in a long time |
| I'm feeling lostallhope right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Mico a répondu le Wed 21 Jan, 2009 @ 9:00pm |
 Coolness: 150450 | Originally Posted By BETTY_HAZE
also when you observe history art there's patterns and there were very long moment in history that were stagnant because maybe of the stability of the society of that precise moment in time.. for example the french beaux-arts and the academic style was so there for soooo long. there;s has been moment in history which brought up reaction in human actions and new/evol. way of thought. Absolutely! Just like how the First and Second World Wars respectively brought about Dadaism and the Beat movement --which were reactions to the instability of their society. They rejected the bourgeois mainstream ideas, and in turn created their own ways of thinking that were completely outside of the box. In a way, I see the underground movements are the Yin to the mainstreams Yang. It is revolutionary of a sort. An art scene appears, and slowly grows, and gains ground. What starts out to be something for a few, over time eventually bursts, and becomes something for the many. You take Dadaism for example, which was all about anti-art, and pretty much telling every pompous bourgeois whore to go fuck themselves. Mind you, less than a decade later, this evolved into other forms of art, such as surrealism and pop art which can be considered (at least to me) to be a part of popular culture. Perhaps not a direct reaction to later popular movements, you get something like graffiti, which although not widely accepted, was about freedom of expression, and reclaiming (or destroying) private property by an isolated and impoverished population. As an art form, bombing was as underground as you can get. A group of young guys and girls, clandestinely making their mark on society without its consent. Writers (as they are called) creating their own styles withing a respected frame work that defied all the conventions of modern art, and society itself. Now look at it. You graffiti on shoes, shirts, billboards (in the form of posters), and even in art galleries! Before this become a TL;DR, the point I'm making is that Underground doesn't die. It is always being resurrected. Here's a homo-quote from wikipedia to sum up my thoughts: "Like an undertow in the ocean, every advance is complemented by a retreat, and every rise transforms into a fall. Thus, a seed will sprout from the earth and grow upwards towards the sky - an intrinsically yang movement. Then when it reaches its full height, it will begin to weaken, and eventually will fall back to the earth in decay - an intrinsically yin movement. Yin always contains the potential for yang, and yang for yin." |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy a répondu le Thu 22 Jan, 2009 @ 10:40am |
| Coolness: 106105 | The mainstream is fuelled by money, whereas the underground is fuelled by passion. |
| I'm feeling love right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Turtle a répondu le Thu 22 Jan, 2009 @ 10:54am |
| Coolness: 68295 | Originally Posted By DATABOY
The mainstream is fuelled by money, whereas the underground is fuelled by passion. well said!!!!! |
| I'm feeling lostallhope right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss a répondu le Thu 22 Jan, 2009 @ 1:55pm |
| Coolness: 129710 | Hummm I dunno if thats the deciding factor
Its perfectly fine to make money doing something you're passionate about, ANY promotor or musician wants to eventually succeed weather underground or not. I know tons of socalled "underground" artists or djs who are unknown simply because they're don't do anything about their careers. Thats not called passion, its called laziness. Do you know how many so called djs in this city don't actually have a weekly where they play their art? About 95% of them. Most pussyout at the first hardship and take a mainstream job (not pointing fingers here) I think if you compromise what you do for money thats bad, but I don't see anything wrong with becoming financial sucessful if you stick to your vision. |
| I'm feeling like the good guy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy a répondu le Thu 22 Jan, 2009 @ 2:04pm |
| Coolness: 106105 | I'm not saying that the peoples working in the mainstream are not passionate, or didnt start off that way.
Just because you are not paid to do what you are passionate about, doent make you lazy. But to do something without the option of monetary gain takes motivation and/or passion. There are a lot of peoples from all walks of life working for the mainstream but very few work for free. Would you still keep your gigs if the money went dry? Btw, there is nothing wrong with the mainstream, it keeps most of the peoples entertained. |
| I'm feeling love right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss a répondu le Thu 22 Jan, 2009 @ 2:35pm |
| Coolness: 129710 | Originally Posted By DATABOY
Would you still keep your gigs if the money went dry? I don't think anyone wants to work or play for free in the scene Thats why you pay covers or buy tickets when you show up to any event Even nights where there is no cover the dj is still getting a cut from the bar If I have the choice of sitting here staring at my records or being somewhere and actually playing music for people, I'll be out playing. Like I said, most guys I know in this city are not "underground" by choice but more by laziness. And money plays a big factor in why they don't play more often. They're all working 9 - 5 jobs |
| I'm feeling like the good guy right now.. | |
Is The Underground Over ?
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