Please fully read my posts above, I'm sorry they are so long. In them, I explained the point of veganism and its definition, which should eliminate your view of it being hypocrisy.

As I stated up there, I do not eat soy products (tofu).

Also, I do realize that other things harm the environment and therefore human and non-human animals, so over the past year my lifestyle has included these new practical things:

I buy as much as I can in bulk so that I don't have any plastic wrappers/waste etc to throw away. When I do, it goes to recycling. I throw very little of anything away. I now have biodegradable compost bags in the freezer that I send to be composted of course... my toilet paper is both 100% recycled and biodegradable (and costs the same amount as normal TP), I use wash cloths instead of paper towel etc, all of my household cleaning products, toiletries, cosmetics, etc are NOT tested on animals, biodegradable, come in glass or recycled/recyclable plastic, I consume as little of it as possible, I even reuse the plastic bags that you put produce in to weigh it..over and over and over and over. Even the bag that I buy my bulk hemp-plus granola (so good) in, I use it over and over (buying it in bulk like that also saves tons on price and eliminates all packaging).

I sew my own clothing, I repair all my old clothing and shoes, yes I care about humans too... (humans are living and feeling too), let's see, what else...

I generally just try to cause as little negative impact as possible. The food I buy is almost always local. I try to eat things that consume less resources to grow (like hemp seeds for example) for the amount of nutrition/calories they provide. I filter my own water instead of buying bottled water. I take my courier bag or backpack to the grocery whenever I buy food. I use plastic bags I find on the ground outside as garbage bags at home.

I bike all year round and take the metro with my bike.

I make my own jewelry.

I make my own poi etc, don't get anything shipped to me unless it's absolutely necessary.

I put "pas des circulaires/no flyers" on my mailbox. I do my banking online, I do not get my telus/internet bills in the mail.

I am not anywhere close to perfect but I do my best. I learn more every day and adapt to it when I do. It's all easy and second nature now.



It does make it more difficult socially in many cases. Most vegans experience feelings of societal alienation. We are sometimes disowned by our families for it like gay people are, people make fun of us all the time, try to slip us non-vegan food, tell us they will eat more bacon-wrapped sausages just to make up for the animals that we are not consuming... ... ....... ....... ... .

We try to make light of it though, there's this awesome threat on one vegan forum I'm on to bring some cheer. It's about "Top stupid things that omnivores say to get us upset" or something. It's hilarious, because the same things are said OVER AND OVER and over. The same jokes, the same shit. Everyone thinks they are being soooo funny and they think we haven't heard it all before. There is so much crap you could not imagine.

Think of it as going to school as a raver in an anti-raver high school.

Oh!! Hey :) :) :) If you want to see an example of some raver recycling, see the pics of me spinning blue glow poi at Soma... you will notice they are water bottles...

Oh yeah and I dig through the trash after parties to separate the recycling from the garbage. In the future I'm just going to make some separate "recycling" lids for half of the trash cans. The lids will somehow be recycled themselves.

No I don't take ecstasy... I never have... that's a bold assumption to make. One of the reasons I don't do drugs (including pharmaceuticals) is for this reason among others. I am no hypocrite. My views do evolve and change and I keep an open mind for new information and I like to look at things from all sides of the coin, but I am no hypocrite... it's amazing how many people say things like "Well your shoes are leather. All vegans are hypocrites." ...my shoes are not leather.. they just assume, assume, accuse.

Why is it unreasonable that someone would question "who is in my circle of compassion" when they are sober? There are many people who have done this sober. Many more are doing it all the time. Please kindly explain to me why you feel that someone must be on drugs to recognize and value compassion. This is like people saying that you need to be on drugs to dance all night. No, you don't.

I am probably one of the most sober people you have ever spoken to. I'm not putting myself on a pedestal here, I don't claim sXe (straight-edge) and I don't think someone is better or worse for doing substances that I don't do myself...

Please don't make statements (accusations?) that I do things, when there is no way you could know if I do them or not.

Actually most of us are atheist/agnostic. Not that I think it's wrong for anyone to believe in shiva/vishnu if they want to...



All those things are *not* okay. The thing about many vegetarians is that they have not yet found out what really goes on in the industry and they are not aware that dairy and eggs cause suffering as well, and at the very least are exploitation/slavery. It just hasn't come together yet. They are not necessarily being hypocritical, in most cases it seems they are just unaware that dairy etc causes suffering and death as well and that it's virtually the same thing as the meat industry. It sounds like that girl was just trying to make the best use she could think of for the meat (for the carnivore/dog) and the "not meat" for herself. I hope that helps.



It's not about disrespecting "food", or trying to make others feel guilty - it's about trying to get people to minimize the horror that is caused by their actions. It's about saving as many sentient beings (things that have nerves) from suffering as possible. It's not about attacking you, or making ourselves feel special.

Why would you bring bacon wrapped sausages, kill more animals than is necessary, cause more suffering and waste more resources than is necessary, just to get people upset, because you feel attacked yourself? If you're mad at someone, take it out on them then or get your frustration out in some other way, don't take it out on the animals that have nothing to do with it.

The vast majority of us are not doing it to be trendy, and as you should be able to see, it is not always easy socially to be vegan...

If others hate us and feel that we are attacking them, well so be it - my aim is not to be popular, get people to like me. I'm not thinking about myself right now, it's not MY situation that's dire and needs the most attention. It's those animals who are being traumatically harmed. I'm just trying my best to promote compassion in the hopes that it will be less in the future.

If you hate some someone, OK! Don't misdirect your anger and take it out on the animals. Whether you hate me and the things I say or not, that should have no bearing on how you treat others.

Speciesism:

It's another form of bigotry. Most of the people who are speciesist don't fully understand it, have never heard the term, and have no ill intent but it is a very sad and unnecessary thing in them that allows them to administer a great deal of suffering to others without giving it a second thought. It makes me very sad to see all the needless suffering because we are evidently so much better than everything else. Egocentrism is where you think you are better than others because they are not the same nationality as you. Speciesism is where you think you are better than others because they are not the same *species* as you.

It comes down to where you draw the line, who you include in your circle of compassion.

For me, whether or not I torture something does not depend on whether or not it is "like me" but whether or not it can feel (has nociceptors). Since animals (including all vertebrates and invertebrates) have nociceptors, and there is NO NEED WHATSOEVER for me to use/exploit them to sustain me, I feel that the only reasonable thing for me to do is to not use them.

If we are truly the most evolved species on the planet (we are in some ways, not all, but definitely in some ways that have allowed us to gain the most power), shouldn't we use that evolution of mind to be responsible and take care of everything, instead of using it to TAKE ADVANTAGE OF everything while destroying it?

You seem to be largely misinformed (like the vast majority of omnivores, including me just over a year ago) what vegans actually eat, or about all the options of it. Your stigmatic views of us as lettuce/tofu munchers is very inaccurate. It's not fair to judge what you really don't know.

You said: "every year millions of animals are killed by wheat and soy bean combines during harvesting season (source)."

...This is a very common thing that's said by people who are uninformed (but I'm not insulting you, it's not your fault). So now I'm going to try to inform you. The livestock that results in your dairy, meat and eggs is all fed on this soy and grain and corn etc. In fact, aprox 80 to 90 per cent of soy that is grown is FED TO LIVESTOCK. Being vegan actually kills exponentially less plants, since you have to feed the livestock so many more plants to be able to get anything from the livestock, as opposed to just getting the nutrition from the vegan food source itself. Livestock is a very inefficient system. That means that for every unfortunate mangled animal in the machines to harvest the grain to feed one vegan, there are many many more that are mangled in the fields to get enough grain to feed the livestock that will feed one omnivore. This is not an attack on you, again, this is simply a fact. Even with the "different type of grain" that is fed to animals (it's actually mostly soy and corn in North America), it's still a big difference.

Quinoa, for example, is a complete protein source as well as having many other nutrients, and has MORE protein in it pound for pound than beef. It takes a lot less resources and land to produce a pound of quinoa than it does to produce a pound of beef. This is a very simple logic.

This also means that the rain forest is being needlessly chopped down for the extra amount of soy/corn that must be grown to feed the livestock. The livestock industry is the number one pollutant of the world, and is responsible for wiping out countless species of WILD animals.

Next: Bio/Organic

There are many studies (that I have been reading lately) that suggest that organic is not necessarily better. There are good organic farming methods as well as good non-organic farming methods. This is a whole new can of worms though, and I think I will leave it at that buying locally produce (which we are fortunate to have in abundance here) is more important right now than buying organic. I also try to buy produce from places I know do not use big machinery, le Frigo Vert next to Concordia is a good place to start.

Pests:

It's interesting how we see the other animals as pests, when we are the ones who have multiplied like a virus and spread over the planet, wiping out everything else in our path. It's not fair to blame deer and elk for trying to eat some food, when there are 7 billion humans overrunning everything. They are just trying to survive. We often point the finger and accuse others of our own failures.

Definition of Veganism:

The point of veganism is not to pretend we can eliminate ALL suffering. Of course we cannot eliminate ALL suffering. The point of veganism is to cause the least amount of harm as is possible. So if 10 animals die so that I can eat my hemp seeds, quinoa, flax, lentils, apples, etc. by me being vegan than the 1000 if I was an omnivore (in addition to mention the resources saved and minimization of pollution), I'm going to be vegan so that I can do the least amount of harm possible. I am still incredibly healthy and fulfilled in my little foodie heart. Here is the definition of veganism from the people who coined the term:

***
[T]he word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.[1] (Donald Watson, 1944)
***

Unfortunately you are grossly misinformed of the facts. I'm going to attempt to kindly correct them. Give me a few moments here.

Yeah I know :) I know it's helped a bunch of people.



What I meant was that the vast majority of "E" users, especially the newer ones, have little or no clue what is in the pills they are taking. I have seen enough of this for enough years now to feel like I can form a fair perspective on it. I have also seen it harm lots of kids who didn't know that they were taking certain drugs that they would never take on their own if they weren't put under the blanket name of "Ecstasy" and dressed up in purple dolphin shapes. I guess it's a personal feeling, but I don't feel that kids taking a mix unknown substances is a very good way of welcoming them to our world. I feel that we should do whatever we can to make our scene into an informed and responsible one, and that's not informed or responsible. Oh feelings.



Yes me too I feel the same exact way :) That's what it's been for me (learning).

Hey man I'm not the one who made it that way :P The fact remains that it is way easier to get anywhere in the industry as a female if you are younger, and in a few years I'll be pushing it. I totally wish I was born a guy. You're also taken much more seriously (in general). Once again that's not the way I want it to be and I didn't make it that way, so don't shoot me for being the bearer of bad news :P

On a positive note, one wonderful thing about the rave scene is that women are, on the whole, given equal respect to males. If only the rest of the world was that way!



Lol That's not true :P I went vegan overnight from omnivore a year and a half ago, and athlete n healthier than ever -

I know roughly how much vitamin B12 I get every day, protein is EVERYWHERE (and to boot, I don't consume soy, as opposed to the typical omnivore diet that has soy in virtually everthing), the blood type thing is a myth, the food pyramid you were taught in school is a myth, I do a lot of studying of nutrition and I really know what I'm talkin about here... (I don't always know what I'm talkin about but on this I do). The general public is SO uneducated about nutrition that ppl go vegan on ethical grounds (yay!) and then have no idea what they are doing nutrition-wise (aw) and then they believe the LIES that you can't get adequate nutrients of whatever sort from a vegan diet (BOOURNS!!!!!)

I don't mean to send any rude vibes your way, I'm just correcting a common innocent error (it's nobody's fault, we were all miseducated about all this shit, I didn't know squat about nutrition until a little over a year ago).

..n' I'm really not looking to start a vegan/non-vegan war right now. XD

I have never bended my values based on authority figures or laws and I'm not going to now (for you, your highness). I'm not going to use the fact that it IS illegal to smoke in dance halls; I'll be consistent in not bowing down to the law just for the law's sake.

Obviously I am not going to intentionally smash people with poi at parties, so the vengeance complex doesn't apply. I was using it as a comparison to what smokers are doing to me (and whoever else is harshly affected by the smoke, like a few friends from out of town that I brought to a couple parties here who have been raving for a long time like me).

Please tell me, how is someone being whacked with a poi different than someone's organs being assaulted by smoke, as they are both preventable and both parties are fully aware of what they are doing to the other person.

I'm never going to stand down on this, but I'm going to be sad if or when you try to outcast me or even ban me from parties because I'm the only one right now (that I know of) who is standing up for my right to clean air in public places (as opposed to the tons of people who are simply too "nice" to say anything and just stop coming to parties that they would otherwise fully enjoy).

Maybe it was just the last bunch of parties that I've been to here but each one of them was intolerably smokey (with the exception of Crudessence's Winter Solstice party, THANK YOU for the dancing and fresh air). You can just look at the photos of the events to see that it's more smokey than is reasonable. If a place isn't even ventilated, it is beyond obscene to have cigarettes indoors.

and WHAT THE FUCK IS RAVE WAVE XD

I'm not going to stop coming to parties, ever, but I will be there with a gas mask with neon no-smoking signs on it and I will only get more and more outspoken about it until things change.

I know... The next time that I come to a party with smoke, I'm going to smash as many smokers as I can with my poi (hard), and argue that it's OK for me to do that because despite the pain/discomfort that I cause them now, there are is no lasting damage.

That's a really plurtastic message to send... "If you don't like being assaulted by thick concentrations of cigarette smoke... LEAVE!"

If they really didn't want to be in the cold (how horribly traumatizing could it possibly be to stand outside in your winter jacket for 5 minutes, REALLY, you've got to be pretty weak), they could just not layer their lungs with tar for a FEW FUCKING HOURS. But imposing their *harmful* fumes on others because they are too selfish to go outside for 5 minutes is both cruel and pathetic.

Going in the cold (especially for a few minutes) does not make you sick. Germs make you sick. People often get more sick in the winter from not opening their windows and letting the place be all stuffy for too long, than people who have fresh cold air sometimes instead.

It's beyond unreasonable to accuse a non-smoker of making a smoker sick. They literally make *themselves* sick (hence cancer, and smoking cigarettes in general makes it easier to get sick and harder to shake a cold once you have it).



1. Being in a rave where people are smoking is often like someone smoking continuously in your face.

2. I've spend a good amount of time working in the bar/restaurant industry before the smoking ban in AB and I remember when it was a big decision for me to make on whether I should stop being able to provide for myself, or be assaulted nightly and smile through it, going home every night with all my clothes reeking of cigs like they do after parties here.

3. The suggestion that no lasting harm can be done by lining your eyes and internal organs with smoke repeatedly is illogical and ridiculous.



What are you talking about? I was born here. Are you trying to tell me that forcing your drugs on others who don't ask for it, is an important part of Quebec culture? What the fuck does this have to do with culture? This has to do with respecting or not respecting people's right to reasonably fresh air. "Culture" is not even a valid argument in this case. Ever since when has tradition made anything right.



Lol. Sure, blame my throat and eyes for what smoking does to them. That makes LOADS of sense.

I'm not new to it - I've been subjected to a lot of second hand smoke and no, it still burns my eyes and throat. I also don't know of any other opera singers who would tolerate a thickly smokey environment.



I don't support the "let's torture an animal for unnecessary shit" industry, and I'm not going to take drugs to try to counter act the drugs that are forced on me.

Music is my fulltime passion and I have volunteered at and supported many events, including my own.

I love the music more than words can say, and that just makes it a bigger shame when I am forced to stop coming because of assholes who feel the desperate need and apparent "freedom" to force their substances on me. Also how exactly would an antihistamine stop the smoke from burning out my eyes and throat, as well as ruining my clothes. My winter jacket permanently smells like smoke now.



OK I'm willing to accept that what I was taught in school about toxins actually changing to become worse after leaving a smoker's body was false (like many other things we were taught in school, like the food pyramid)... now what about the smoke coming off the end of the cigarette? Can you please explain how the burning of those thousands of carcinogenic chemicals are not toxic to me?



Alright then, I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to smokers.



Who made YOU God/the minister of PLUR?

Assaulting others is the opposite of plur.

:) aw

I have to warn you though, I do live on the 3rd floor of an apartment building and there is no way for her to come and go from here :( It's sort of like a big cage. There's no place that I could put a cat flap for her to come in and out :( How I wish I lived on the ground floor now... Wandering the hallways of this building would be pointless for her.

It's really a last resort thing. It's better than her going to the SPCA for sure but not ideal. We should see this as temporary and try to find another place (as much as I would just love to have a non-human friend around here).

I'll also warn you that if I end up with her longterm, she will likely go vegan. I know that sounds insane and it sounded crazy to me too, but a raw vegan friend of mine has 2 cat roomies who have been raw vegan and wonderfully thriving for a number of years now. I will talk to him about it and find out the nutritional specifics before anything would happen.

What is a pet taxi?

Also, does she tear up material and stuff with her claws? I am gypsy-type and some material that I don't want ruined is lining my walls. Let me know before so that I can take it down *sadness*.

Aw she is really going to be clostraphobic in here. It's better than the SPCA though.

I'd like to play with people in a nice 5 dollar tourney :)

<----female

Actually I'm trying/looking to put together an electronica/metal/classically influenced dark band sort of deal. I'm really hoping to do this with other vegans. I will be playing nylon-string guitar, harp, electric bass if needed, dumbeks, other instruments mayhaps, and singing operatic style type thingy. Electronic influences for this group will include (but not necessarily be limited to) psy, dub, ambient, IDM, and hardcore.

Oh and of course fire dancing will be part of the performance. I have a cordless headset mic so that I can sing and fire dance at the same time during the show.



Believe me when I say I know these things. I've been there and done that. I don't have infinite time anymore though.



I would sing their songs, take the money, and then build a recording studio with that money! Hell yes.

The Beatles, for example, did not start off their career with "While My Guitar Gently Weeps". They started it with cheesy pop shit that they were told to make.

...and then once they had a larger audience, they spilled out the "Imagine" and I don't think I have to even explain what *that* did..

Oh I agree, I never said that drugs MAKE people have lack of ethics, but certain ones do ENCOURAGE a lack of ethics. There is too strong of a relation to ignore.

This is coming from someone who has a deep personal history with meth users.



but why does *that* have to be the "welcome to our world"? How is that a nice way to tell them welcome? Getting them all scribbled up on a bunch of toxic shit that they don't even know about, that they don't even understand what is happening chemically to their brains?



I agree, it's beyond annoying every time I hear that. As if the human body isn't capable of dancing and hanging out for several hours. It's ironic how I'm the one still dancing at 8am till the last song, and always sober. I'm not a fricking supernatural being (ok, well in all fairness I AM a vegan ;).

>>>lack of ethics which are encouraged by meth etc and being all strung out on random mixtures of crap (mostly meth) when you think you're doing MDMA.

How about interview some of the people who have been going to a variety of parties for a LONG TIME, meaning those people who are still partying because they didn't crash themselves on drugs, and therefore don't need to quit the scene because of the association of parties=drugs?

I am raving for over 7 years now (I'm 22) and I never got into loading up on drugs (which is more than can be said for the majority of the bar scene), I go for the amazing energy rush, music, artwork, and community. People being on drugs do not bother me, but I find it REALLY annoying when people assume that I'm on drugs because of this stigma that is being perpetuated that all ravers are on drugs...

I THINK WE SHOULD STOP PERPETUATION THAT FALSEHOOD. Show a different side of the party scene that not many people on the outside seem to know about... OTHER reasons that we go to the parties, other than drugs (if there were no other reasons, surely everyone would just do their 2CT37alphaB pills at home). That would be something meaningful.

Maybe we could make a movie about the government's wrongful oppression against raves that has dissolved the scene and molded people away from the lifestyle and philosophies (in most places), and how Quebec is interesting because we have for the most part been spared of that here.

I grew up for the most part in Calgary, which is where I went to most of my parties. The government treats raves very differently there and I don't know if everyone in this scene knows how lucky we are to have it the way we do. Maybe a movie about progression of the North American rave scenes (including the Rainbow Gathering, for very juicy recent history involving the government) would make for an incredibly interesting documentary/movie.

Has anyone done an up-to-date movie on this?

I WILL TAKE HER!!

I only have a bachelor pad (1 and a half) but I will most certainly take her before allowing her to be sent to the SPCA. I will offer her my love and roof while we find her a new home (or I move into a place that has easier access to the outdoors for her to roam freely but call my place home). You must help me pay for her food at least at first though, because I am very poor.

she must also be spayed if she is not already.

Animals are not meant to be in captivity (including in livestock "factories"/concentration camps), and humans should not have bred cats and dogs out of control so that now there are so many poor animals who need homes. I hope you can all learn from this.

ADOPT, DON'T SHOP. Don't breed, don't shop, instead - adopt.

By the way, Armani uses real fur in their clothing lines (from rabbits etc).

Hey darlin', I live about a block from Saphir and it's AWESOME here!! It also happens to be right next to the spot on the mountain where we have tamtams (giant drum circle) all warm season, with fire dancing and everything. Also Passport is a 5 minute bike ride away, and the metro (depending on where exactly you are in this area) is a few minute walk.

Also, VERY VERY IMPORTANTLY, right next door to Saphir and me is a store called Epicerie Seagull. They are easily the cheapest and most diverse grocery store in town. They don't give out plastic-effing-bags, you bring your own! It's awesome. They are a great store for any dietary needs, including me, and I'm a super health nut vegan who's diet consists of hemp seeds, Ruth's hemp seed powder, quinoa, LOCAL produce (they have tons of local produce), raw nuts of all types, dates (to give you an example of some of the awesome stuff they have at like, 1/2 the price of *everywhere* else).

There are also a lot of different ethnic restaurants around here. Further up St Laurent is Le Chill, a psytrance lounge, and there is another good place that had weekly hardcore nights a few blocks away on St Denis. I think they are still going but I don't know for sure.

Another good place to live would be right next to Concordia.. depending on what you find, it might cost a bit more to live there but you would also save a bunch on metro fare plus right beside Concordia is "Le Frigo Vert" which is an anti-capitalist student-run food co-op that is extremely cheap and gets all of its (organic) produce from a farm outside Montreal that you can actually go work on if you like. They have 50 cent samosas from Pushap's Indian restaurant. Oh yeahs.

Also at Concordia is a daily by-donation lunch called "The People's Potato" who are known to have some really good stuff sometimes. It's suitable for vegan diets as well.

That's very interesting because I considered my eyes and throat to be organs in my body, and when both of them are ruined by the smoke at parties, I consider that to be others imposing their way of life on me in a violent way. I don't need a fucking likely-payed-off study to tell me that my eyes and throat are corroding from it. It stings my eyes and I can't sing properly after parties because of it. For the sake of music I might have to stop coming!

How do you figure the thousands of toxins emitted by second hand smoke don't affect us in a negative way. That makes no logical sense.

I stand up for people's rights to be the way they want to be, all the time, unless it harms others!

You go on about not imposing one's way of life on someone else, but what do you think cigarette smoke does.

You should be grateful that your drug of choice is legal and prohibited less than most are, and not force it on others!!!

I should not have to wave my right to not be assaulted, just to appease the apparent right of addicts to spew toxicity in concentrated force through my dancing air.

Smoke filled air is nowhere near to PLUR. You can't just go outside for 5 mins, you have to hurt me for the sake of your own convenience. That seems like a very selfish thing to do, to harm others like that just for your own convenience.

I strongly agree
-Vegannibal

Let's get together and make a POTLUCK POKER! or a Poker Potluck, whichever sounds coolest. Vegan pls if it's a potluck, so that everyone can enjoy.

We can have our own mini tournaments with 5 dollar buy-ins or something. Second place gets small consolidation prize.

I will come to the cass with you.

These past couple of days I have gotten into learning different types of poker and raping the world of online tournaments but it's not the same since I can sit here laughing my ass off without anyone on the other side noticing.

that happens in countries where they are censoring the net for ppl. It doesn't say "this has been censored", it just says something like "404 - bad network address" or "did you type the address in wrong?" etc XD

damn straight.

Hey... I had an idea.

If the underground is over, wouldn't that just make it even more underground?

RECYCLING RECEPTACLES AT EVERY PARTY. I'm sure we can scrape a few bucks together from the ticket sales of parties to get raw materials for lids to fit over the trash cans, and I will make and decorate them for us. I have black light paints n stuff to make them snazzy, and will make bottle-size holes in the centers...

and NO FUCKING SMOKING IN-FUCKING-SIDE FOR FUCK SAKES FUCKING FUCK. <----yelling

I mean if we were capable, in the conscious community in Alberta, in fucking COWTOWN of all places, to do these two simple things that make our conscious image mean anything at all... that make us SLIGHTLY environmentally friendly and walk our earthy fucking walk, at the same time as not forcing our own personal substances (cigarette smoke) on others, then SURELY WE CAN DO THIS IN MONTREAL.

....

...oh, and, PLUR :) now we have to walk our talk. Peace upon others, not forcing them to inhale our toxic fumes, which is surly not a Loving thing to do. Unity is great, and I will break my union with you if my lungs and other organs are not Respected here.

I love you so much. Please don't cast me out by forcing me to make the decision between upping my chances drastically for cancer, and not raving.

...and it will REALLY grab my gears if (and when) some losers stop listening to my music if (and when) I "make it", for lack of me being underground enough, whatever that constitutes. ho hum.

:) I need to hear that sometimes.

I may be wallowing in the mud right now, but if I stick with it, I could be happily swimming in it later. XD

It depends what kind of living you're talking about. I make my living off of music and I'm pretty sure that my poor ass is still "underground", haha.



What if I breathe music, and tiring myself out doing something else for the big portion of each day (instead of spending that energy developing my art/career) sounds less appealing than suicide? That might sound dramatic but at least I'm being honest about how I feel. I've done the other job thing to "save up for music". It just took time and energy away from WHAT I'M REALLY SUPPOSED TO BE DOING. Well fuck that! After being robbed, that's gone but I'm not a fucking victim and now I've just said "fuckit" and I'm doing my fucking art and nothing else. Now I don't even have the coin to get it going and I'm doing it anyways, and I don't even care if I have to eat less because of it. I'd rather die than waste my life doing something else that's supposedly "contributing" to society. *What* fucking society. Fucking fucking fuckity fuck fuck fuckening fuck.

But if just doing music on the side makes you happy and you're able to live with that, go for it! Some of us are not in that situation.



"Patience" IMO is not supposed to include "not being able to fully get into my art because I'm spending all my time and energy on something else". I think I'm showing AMPLE patience. Ample.



Cliche and still very real.

Over the top for me in what way?

And no I'm not only into doing acoustic music, I'm just a broke punkass musician who can't afford all the other instruments and tools that I want to make music with :P

Oh, life slipping away for a stupid reason.

While I'm here though, does anyone want a singer chick on some tracks? I come with infinite melodies to go with your tracks :) o.O

-thank you, I have now found my journal and stuff. Who would have thought that it would be in "settings" eh! I guess I hadn't explored all my avenues. Wow I can't believe I missed that now, but thank you.

My name is the way it is because it is the closest thing that represents me now in written form that I can find. I'm nameless other than that until I find one. If you have any swell ideas for an artist name, please let me know.

wow

Well I guess that's just one more instance of many where the whole "homosexuality/bisexuality is not natural" fallacy is just tossed out of the window! Whoopee! Not to mention, the "animals have no sexual urges or feelings beyond procreational instinct" fallacy. Hmpfh.

I had a friend growing up with a couple puppy companions, two females, who would hump each other quite often and vigorously.

I like the poker :) I'm gonna win me a recording studio, WEE HOO!

Hello, I am an lost raver girl, it's embarassing, but I need someone to help me find my way in life...

I mean...

how to create a blog/put up poems/fill out all the "I am 5 foot 2/like yoga/music/biking etc" type things in my profile.

I am pretty computer savvy and for some reason have searched this site without finding the way to do these simple functions. Please send aid, and thank you, valiant raver hero, in advance.

oh yes but but BUUUUUT it's very hard to keep yourself alive, let alone make music, when you have no food/place to sleep due to not making enough from your music. It's the classic heart breaking dilema of ...to die making music, or feed myself with traumatizingly non-music job?

...and heehee, yes N.a, the "industry", yes, let's all perpetuate this concept now, say it over and over and over until people think it exists!! XD times infinity.

databoy, I see things from your perspective too, that music is in the perception of the individual.

Let me re-say how I feel about the difference between "good music" and "bad music". Maybe I should call it "music with or without integrity" or something instead, meaning that there is some music that is created for the sake of creating music, and there is some music that is created for the sake of "I am a robot I do as I is told I am not a musician but a device of the so-called industry and all my base is belong to them and my music is soulless because if I put any soul into it then evidently it will not sell so all my base is belong to them and especially if I am female robot this is a porno vid not a music vid and nothing shall be said against the government or any guitars solos/complexity of any sort added OR ELSE".

I agree strongly with databoy about stuff, especially about the fact that just because you are not "succeeding" in the music industry (i.e. breakcore artists) does NOT mean that you are not both brilliant and working/trying very hard.

THANK YOU. And if I somehow magically come up with the funds to get my career going and somehow also someday my music becomes famous (hah), I would think it's pretty lame/weak of people who liked my music before to stop liking it just because it became popular. I like Anahata (who?) and I also happen to like me some Joan Baez... and how many other people have been exposed to their music REALLY does not factor in when I am deciding if I like their music myself.

IMO people are trying too hard to conform to non-conforming. Yeah that's right. That's what this whole "I'm underground" "no, I'M underground" "no, MY underground music is more underground than YOUR quasi-underground music" ...who cares, ya posers!

If raves were mainstream I would still go to them. I'm not TRYING to be part of an alternative sub-culture, I just so happen to find myself here. I think the real beauty of finding yourself in an "underground" culture is when you're not just there because you are looking to stand out or be special (the whole conforming to non-conformity complex), but because you actually dig the music and art itself.

Then when you find out that these wild wonderful things that you are drawn to are not part of the mainstream, the attitude should not be "Let's keep it to ourselves so that nobody else finds out and it can stay UNDERGROUND and ALTERNATIVE and BADASS, nany nany poo poo." but more like, "Let's share this with the world, so that more people can enjoy it!"

I think that when too many people are on their "more underground than thou" elitist clouds, they become to heavy and start raining on the party.

p.s. Maybe some artists want to become well known so that they can use their voices for some changes they want to see in the world. *points to self* Money is not the only inspiration, you know.

Oh I don't mean to be so aggressive but this is something that's irked me for a bit now. *twitch*

Well I am a singer/songwriter so I don't imagine it will be very easy now!! :( But I guess people will need music.

This whole imaginary economy thingy is really annoying, and the imaginary crash that comes with it that somehow translates into reality. Maybe next time, not so much fake money should be printed, lol.

WOH TREE

THAT WAS GOOD.