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French Kids Go Apeshit, Burn Down Police Station
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Sun Dec 9, 2007 @ 5:56am
basdini
Coolness: 145160
as if you know anything...
I'm feeling surly right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» DrGonzo replied on Sun Dec 9, 2007 @ 11:46am
drgonzo
Coolness: 265915
I'm feeling love in a speaker right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Anarkoid replied on Sun Dec 9, 2007 @ 12:04pm
anarkoid
Coolness: 192635
These riots are so not P.L.U.R.
I'm feeling right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» DrGonzo replied on Sun Dec 9, 2007 @ 12:14pm
drgonzo
Coolness: 265915
are you kidding me?
I'm feeling love in a speaker right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» PoiSoNeD_CaNdY replied on Mon Dec 10, 2007 @ 12:21am
poisoned_candy
Coolness: 91650
Originally Posted By SCOTTYP PS "ANGRY YOUTHS" IS A CODE WORD FOR "NORTH AFRICAN YOUTH". BY "ETHNIC" THEY MEAN "NORTH AFRICAN MUSLIMS". I HATE THE WORD "ETHNIC", IT IS A PSEUDO-RACIST COP-OUT WORD. IT'S KIND OF LIKE WHEN YOU MAKE UP YOUR OWN WORD TO REFER TO CERTAIN CULTURAL GROUPS, SO PEOPLE WON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING OR NOT BE OFFENDED. TYPICAL IN THE LIBERAL MEDIA, WHICH IS AFRAID OF OFFENDING ANYBODY OR ACCURATELY REFLECTING THE ISSUES AT HAND. FOR INSTANCE, THE ARTICLE SHOULD READ: MARGINALIZED NORTH AFRICAN IMMIGRANTS WHO CAN'T INTEGRATE INTO FRENCH SOCIETY, DESPITE WHAT APPEARED TO BE A TOLERANT STANCE TOWARD IMMIGRATION IN THE PAST, ARE BURNING THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYTHING BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO. THE "ACCOMMODATION" DEBATES IN QUEBEC ARE LARGELY DUE TO STUFF LIKE THIS.


Ethnicity and religion are two completely seperate things. There are white Moslems, Arab Moslems, Black Moslems, etcetera.

The fact that the protesters are immigrants *is* relevant.
The fact that unemployment rates for immigrants are astronomical *is* relevant.
The fact that many immigrants have not integrated (for whatever reasons) into French society *is* relevant.

However, the fact that many of the protesters are likely Muslim has absolutely *no* relevance whatsoever, so it would therefore make as much sense for the media to mention religion as it would to see a headline like "Christian man robs deppaneur"
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Mon Dec 10, 2007 @ 1:22am
nothingnopenope
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It does make a difference, because the difference of religion/culture is one of the underlying reasons for the problems. That is what is causing the integration issue. France has secular values; this can be at odds with those of immigrants as well as second-generation citizens.

It makes a difference because it is a minority who are committing a majority of the riots. You might be right about not mentioning religion because it is an over-generalization but simply calling them "French youths" is completely ignoring the nature of the problem.

I'd like to add that I appreciate your well thought out comment, as opposed to some of the other people on this site who simply spout drivel toward my (never perfect) comments.
I'm feeling gangsta right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» flo replied on Mon Dec 10, 2007 @ 5:50am
flo
Coolness: 146285
it's a kinda fascist generalisation to say that the riots are done by immigrants, or arabs, or muslims.
the "french youths" rioting are living in poor ghetto-like conditions, no matter what their ethnical/cultural/religious backgrounds are.
I'm feeling phd powa !!! right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Mon Dec 10, 2007 @ 6:25am
basdini
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Originally Posted By SCOTTYP IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE, BECAUSE THE DIFFERENCE OF RELIGION/CULTURE IS ONE OF THE UNDERLYING REASONS FOR THE PROBLEMS. THAT IS WHAT IS CAUSING THE INTEGRATION ISSUE. FRANCE HAS SECULAR VALUES; THIS CAN BE AT ODDS WITH THOSE OF IMMIGRANTS AS WELL AS SECOND-GENERATION CITIZENS. IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE BECAUSE IT IS A MINORITY WHO ARE COMMITTING A MAJORITY OF THE RIOTS. YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT ABOUT NOT MENTIONING RELIGION BECAUSE IT IS AN OVER-GENERALIZATION BUT SIMPLY CALLING THEM "FRENCH YOUTHS" IS COMPLETELY IGNORING THE NATURE OF THE PROBLEM. I'D LIKE TO ADD THAT I APPRECIATE YOUR WELL THOUGHT OUT COMMENT, AS OPPOSED TO SOME OF THE OTHER PEOPLE ON THIS SITE WHO SIMPLY SPOUT DRIVEL TOWARD MY (NEVER PERFECT) COMMENTS.


yet another issue you haven't got a clue, yet feel the need to pontificate uninformed views about.

the cops a incredibly racist in france (the CRS more than the Gentdarme) more then anything you can imagine and they love to give minorities (arab, african and even eastern european) a hard time...that's why if you go there you see them roaming around in big gangs of like 15-20 kids around champs elysee, Trocedero and Les Halles, because the cops are afraid to approach them when they are in such big groups and they know this...
I'm feeling surly right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Mon Dec 10, 2007 @ 3:34pm
nothingnopenope
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THEIR ETHICAL/CULTURAL/RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND IS THE REASON THEY ARE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND THE REASON THEY HAVE NO JOBS AND RIOT.

When the riots happened in L.A. and other places in the USA would it make sense to not address that they had to do with an oppressed black community? Should we simply call the riots about Rodney King "angry citizens" and ignore the entire reason for the anger? That does not make sense.

It is extremely prejudice to ignore the reasons for the problem by over-generalizing who is doing it. It is as if they are afraid to address the problem at all. They will just call them "youths", as if there is no real problem and they are just a bunch of soccer hooligans.
I'm feeling gangsta right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» flo replied on Mon Dec 10, 2007 @ 6:25pm
flo
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Originally Posted By SCOTTYP

THEIR ETHICAL/CULTURAL/RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND IS THE REASON THEY ARE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND THE REASON THEY HAVE NO JOBS AND RIOT.


not always, not for everyone of them. france is an elitist nation and tends to ignore the lowest social classes, which are at the same time being helped with social welfare. the problem is that (most of the time) this help is not enough and the society doesn't allow them to get out of their condition. the french people has been rioting for several centuries, and this is kinda cultural by now : we try to have what we want by massively shouting it in the streets, with demonstrations, strikes, riots, etc... that's how we obtained our social welfare and that's why our government looks more "socialist" than others. the problem is that, like it happened in 1789 with the french revolution, it's the upper classes who take the power just after the struggle, and they do what they want while making fake smiles to lower classes and making them believe they'll have what they asked for.


It is extremely prejudice to ignore the reasons for the problem by over-generalizing who is doing it. It is as if they are afraid to address the problem at all. They will just call them "youths", as if there is no real problem and they are just a bunch of soccer hooligans.


you're the one generalising, many of the rioting people you're talking about are 100% french, from french culture, or from several different ethnic/cultural/religious background, even white blond christians. i agree that many of them are from african origin, but we brought them in france after killing their people with our stupid colonisations and wars.
I'm feeling phd powa !!! right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Mon Dec 10, 2007 @ 6:38pm
nothingnopenope
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The black people in the USA were 100% American, from American culture, and their rioting was recognized as being motivated by racial discrimination. In France they are trying to cover up the real reasons.
I'm feeling gangsta right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» PoiSoNeD_CaNdY replied on Tue Dec 11, 2007 @ 2:58am
poisoned_candy
Coolness: 91650
Originally Posted By SCOTTYP THEIR ETHICAL/CULTURAL/RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND IS THE REASON THEY ARE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND THE REASON THEY HAVE NO JOBS AND RIOT. WHEN THE RIOTS HAPPENED IN L.A. AND OTHER PLACES IN THE USA WOULD IT MAKE SENSE TO NOT ADDRESS THAT THEY HAD TO DO WITH AN OPPRESSED BLACK COMMUNITY? SHOULD WE SIMPLY CALL THE RIOTS ABOUT RODNEY KING "ANGRY CITIZENS" AND IGNORE THE ENTIRE REASON FOR THE ANGER? THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. IT IS EXTREMELY PREJUDICE TO IGNORE THE REASONS FOR THE PROBLEM BY OVER-GENERALIZING WHO IS DOING IT. IT IS AS IF THEY ARE AFRAID TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM AT ALL. THEY WILL JUST CALL THEM "YOUTHS", AS IF THERE IS NO REAL PROBLEM AND THEY ARE JUST A BUNCH OF SOCCER HOOLIGANS.


I'm not saying you don't have a point, but when it comes to bringing up matters of racial or religious background its a really delicate issue, because you have to provide the proper perspective and framing of the situation in order to prevent an increase in prejudice towards the community that are supposedly "responsible".

In other words, saying that the rioting is being done by North African Moslem youth can lead to one of two interpretations of the situation:

(1) The rioting is done by north african moslem youth because these people are inherently violent and aggresive and therefore don't belong in our country

or

(2) The rioting is done by north african moslem youth because these people have been discriminated against and excluded from mainstream society and hence react violently in responce to a perceived attack by the police against their community

Unfortunately, conclusion #1 is much "easier" cognitively to arrive at because its a simple, clear cut (though incorrect) explanation. Conclusion #2 takes a much greater understanding of the context of these events and is much more of an effortful conclusion to make. That's why bringing up issues of ethnicity and religion is an exetremely sensitive issue and if its done, must be done only in the proper context.
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Tue Dec 11, 2007 @ 6:34am
nothingnopenope
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Again, can someone explain to me why they would mention the LA and other American riots as related to black anger, and avoid mentioning any details about the (much more serious) consistent riots in France.

I'm not interested in dumbing down my comments for people. I don't care about being politically correct, the truth is much more important.

The Media is run by cowards. Fuck them.
I'm feeling gangsta right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» flo replied on Tue Dec 11, 2007 @ 7:19am
flo
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Originally Posted By SCOTTYP

Again, can someone explain to me why they would mention the LA and other American riots as related to black anger, and avoid mentioning any details about the (much more serious) consistent riots in France.


i just explained you what's happening in france. the ethnical/cultural/religious minorities have never been well-accepted in france, excepted for some rare people. the french people has always been self-righteous, proud, elitist, and haughty, especially towards strangers who try to integrate french society. the cause of the riots is not so much the exclusion of people from foreign orgin, but rather the ghettos and the elitist mind which always makes poor people poorer and rich people richer.
I'm feeling phd powa !!! right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Tue Dec 11, 2007 @ 8:18am
nothingnopenope
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the cause of the riots is not so much the exclusion of people from foreign orgin, but rather the ghettos and the elitist mind which always makes poor people poorer and rich people richer.


Then why is it people of foreign origin who are rioting, and not people who have been in France for many generations?

Can someone explain to me why when the riots in LA happened, which involved an oppressed American minority who were citizens (African-Americans), that the media properly reffered to the situation as having to due with race/ethnicity instead of skidding around the issue and simply calling the riot "angry people in LA".

I'm going to keep asking the same question until someone can explain the difference to me.

Otherwise we might have to start referring to all uprisings as simply "angry people".
Update » nothingnopenope wrote on Tue Dec 11, 2007 @ 8:20am
This basically sets a precedent for the the media to white-wash any conflict that has to due with ethnicity. They could basically refer to any genocide as "just a bunch of angry people who killed other people".

Or we we could start referring to the conflict in Israel as "just a bunch of angry middle-easterners killing each other".
I'm feeling gangsta right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» moondancer replied on Tue Dec 11, 2007 @ 9:54am
moondancer
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Stating their ethnicity or differences without stating what the real cause of their problem is is worse than not stating their differences at all. That's the easiest propaganda tool to use, no it's not lying, just simply leaving out the most important part.
I'm feeling bored right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Tue Dec 11, 2007 @ 1:44pm
nothingnopenope
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I don't think it is a coincidence that a minority are oppressed for being a minority.
I'm feeling gangsta right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» moondancer replied on Tue Dec 11, 2007 @ 3:13pm
moondancer
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No I don't think so either. Nothing's ever a coincidence and nothing this serious is that simple.
I'm feeling bored right now..
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» PoiSoNeD_CaNdY replied on Tue Dec 11, 2007 @ 4:46pm
poisoned_candy
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Originally Posted By MOONDANCER STATING THEIR ETHNICITY OR DIFFERENCES WITHOUT STATING WHAT THE REAL CAUSE OF THEIR PROBLEM IS IS WORSE THAN NOT STATING THEIR DIFFERENCES AT ALL. THAT'S THE EASIEST PROPAGANDA TOOL TO USE, NO IT'S NOT LYING, JUST SIMPLY LEAVING OUT THE MOST IMPORTANT PART.


Exactly.
Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Tue Dec 11, 2007 @ 5:04pm
nothingnopenope
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so they should state all those things!
I'm feeling gangsta right now..
French Kids Go Apeshit, Burn Down Police Station
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