:( :( :(

Come back.

Exactly, liklihood and logic are not the same at all. It is more likely that there is no god or that based on how many different gods there are - that any one of them would be the right one. However it can't be logically disproved. Assumption based on likelihood or lack of evidence against is illogical because logic is unbendable and absolute. If logic can't determine something absolute it isn't logic. Logic can't be a theory or an opinion or an assumption based on likelihood.

Defending your non-religion doesn't bother me. I just don't see where the need to defend this came in here in the first place. Nobody cares. I just don't see the majority of replies here as defense but offense. Nobody said anythign was wrong wtih atheism did they? Be atheist, be happy. What does it matter what anyone else thinks? Whether or not you call it a relgion if you consider yourself more evolved in your opinions than others than you also believe that other people agreeing with you is what's best for them or correct. That's the problem with a lot of relgious people and that's the problem with a lot of atheists. You share all the same problems to a T. You don't consider it preaching just because you think you're right. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong it's still preaching. I don't care what it is or isn't. It's a very easy concept to understand, don't worry about that. Continuously stateing what it is and isn't as if you're trying to make us understand. We get it.

I don't understand why people keep makign arguments about who's better than who. When did that become a concern? No one cares. This doesn't solidify either side of the story, it only outlines your mutual human weaknesses.

Why should I feel sorry for a group of people who claim they don't even exist?

I also disagree that you can be spiritual and atheist. That would go against the entire theory of atheism and not believing what can't logically be proven. Once again atheism and agnosticism are not the same thing. If you want to become an agnostic just do so. Why does anyone bother to call themselves anything? Why must our opinions be binded and grouped to that of an outside authority? If atheism is not a relgion than why on earth does it matter so much to you? Why must you call yourself by that name? Why can't you simple just nto beleive in god and be happy?

Atheim is at the very least a stance and once you start believing that it is an evolved view from which all of human kind can benefit you are following exactly the same logic as a fundamentalist christian. Same output with a few different words.

That's a hella bold statement. You should never claim yourself to be more evolved. The only way to know what evolved is is to become it and so you can never ever know. There are tons of people who turned relgious that weren't, even atheists and vice versa, there are many religious people turned atheist. Assuming you understand everyone else and that you are indeed more evolved is a step back from evolution.

[ www.beliefnet.com ]


[ www.youtube.com ]

It's funny that people would have to make any personal choices regarding what they don't believe. Evolution is not useless opposition. Nobody is shocked or awed by your disbelief, it's completely ordinary. I don't understand what you people keep defending if you aren't trying to convert people to atheism. It's like you're arguing with no one about nothingness. We already know what atheism is it doesn't need anymore explaining. It's ridiculous that this discussion is still going.

You people really think that what you're saying is something new. I'd be more entertained in kindergarden.

As someone who is neither religious nor athiest I can say that my polarity has not changed whatsoever after reading this thread. I can state very firmly that I have learned LITERALLY NOTHING.

I'm sure they do. Why do people keep christmas cards and random stupid gifts? Isn't the memory of the christmas card enough? People don't need the christmas card but they don't wanna throw it out either. You don't keep it so much to remember it as you do because it just wouldn't feel right not to and because everytime you look at it you think of that person and how much you appreciate them. If you made a copy of that christmas card which you previously threw out it just wouldn't be the same. It's not necessarily that they needed it in the first place but they were deceived into believing they had it whether or not they ever wanted it and it's impossible in that case that they wouldn't feel either connected with that object or disturbed about the lack of connection with it. You don't have to understand just respect others feelings. It's really disrespectful for anyone to allow another to have those kind of feelings just because.. wait a minute, what was his use in keeping their real ashes?

Scott was telling me about a good place on or near parc avenue. Maybe ask him.

I think that if a death penalty exists at all, even if it's only intended for those who are convicted of 100% guilt, then it's almost guaranteed some innocent people will be put to death too. That's more due to the fact that ppl aren't innocent until proven guilty anymore though. My issue with it is 1. The traumatising environment in which this takes place. They can at least put some flowers and paintings in stuff in those rooms, I just find it really disrespectful to human life not to provide someone with a comfortable atmosphere before they die(regardless of what we may think they deserve). 2. Depending on the circumstances judging someone who took it into their own hands to decide someone should die by deciding they should die.

On the other hand life in prison can be worse so in some cases killing them might almost be a merciful but if they're still alive there's always this faint glimmer of hope for them so I dunno. I'm just disgusted by the way they do it. Imagine having to watch a friend die through that glass... it disgusts me anyone would ever let that situation take place. *shivers*

Right :)

I'd probably judge his intended use versus my intended use and if I thought his was more useful or important to him I'd sell it back but charge ten or twenty dollars more. I wouldn't feel any kind of moral obligation. Any other asshole could have snagged his domain instead of you.

New Jersey scraps death penalty

Lawmakers in the US state of New Jersey have approved a bill abolishing the death penalty.
In a 44-36 vote, the Democrat-run state assembly replaced the death sentence with life in prison without parole.

The bill is expected to be signed into law by Democratic Governor Jon Corzine - an opponent of the death penalty.

The move would make New Jersey the first US state to abolish capital punishment since the US Supreme Court reinstated executions in 1976.

Campaigners say they hope the vote in the New Jersey Assembly will encourage opponents of the death penalty elsewhere in the US.

The death penalty is on the statute books in 36 other states, according to the Washington-based Death Penalty Information Center, although several are re-examining the use of capital punishment.

Fewer people were executed in America last year than at any time in the past 10 years.



There has been a de facto moratorium on executions since the US Supreme Court announced in September that it would be considering a legal challenge against the use of lethal injections.

New Jersey has not executed anyone since 1963.

A special state commission set up in New Jersey reported earlier this year that putting prisoners on death row to await execution was more expensive than jailing someone for life.

The report also said that capital punishment had not deterred murder and risked killing an innocent person.

Megan's law

The end of capital punishment would spare eight men who are on death row in New Jersey. These include Jesse Timmendequas, a sex offender convicted of murdering seven-year-old Megan Kanka in 1994.

This case led to Megan's Law, which requires authorities to notify the public about convicted sex offenders living in their communities.

"My daughter was raped, she was strangled, she was suffocated. She was also raped post-mortem and her body was dumped in a nearby park," said Richard Kanka as he appealed to legislators not to abolish the death penalty.

"I feel the system has spit on me, has slapped me and I am fuming," Marilyn Flax , whose husband was kidnapped and murdered in 1989 by John Martini Sr, told the Associated Press.

Robert O Marshall, who was spared the death penalty in 2004 after he had spent 18 years on New Jersey's death row convicted of the contract killing of his wife, said the decision was long overdue.

"It's a huge waste of money and doesn't accomplish anything," Mr Marshall said from a New Jersey maximum security prison where he is serving a life sentence.


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This board could use a new subject. If anyone posts anything about religion or anti-relgion in this thread it will be spam.

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.

- Albert Einstein, responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein's question "Do you believe in God?" quoted in: Has Science Found God?, by Victor J Stenger

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being. - Albert Einstein, letter to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic, Vol. 5, No. 2

o be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with the natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress.

- Albert Einstein, Science and Religion (1941)

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor - not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

- Albert Einstein, The World As I See It (1949)

I am an adherent of the ideal of democracy, although I well know the weaknesses of the democratic form of government. Social equality and economic protection of the individual appeared to me always as the important communal aims of the state. Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated.

- Albert Einstein, The World As I See It (1949)

Laws alone cannot secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be a spirit of tolerance in the entire population.

- Albert Einstein, Out Of My Later Years (1950), quoted from Laird y, ed., "The Degeneration of Belief"

Albert Einstein was neither relgious or non-religious. He didn't believe in god the way he's commonly portrayed but he clearly believed in a god/force of spiritual nature. He understood how social problems happen and that tolerance was important. I think he just loved nature for what it really was and was not one to reject anything. Even Einstein completely contradicts himself with some his quotes. It reminds me how unperfect even legends are or maybe it's just a sign of how much ppl respected him that he didn't have to be careful about every tidbit he said.

Boohoohoo, cry me a river Captain Oblivious. Nobody is bothering you. You are not the victim you make yourself out to be. Get over it.

It's amazing, not one person has said anythign against atheism yet and you are already defending it. Wow you are really fuckign tortured by all those relgiious people, damn. There's not a single one around and yet they're preching at you. They're telepathic oh no.

You people make me sick.

You're just saying the same wrong thing over and over. I don't see people killing in the name of religion, I see people killing who probably would have killed anyway justifying their actions religiously because they are religious. When a christian wants to do somethign and believes it is necessary that's what they do.

The Koran is full of violence and dumb stuff said by prophets and things which are completely inappropriate in modern times but were very normal in mideival times. NEWS FLASH. So is the bible. It's amazing how you people manage to justify your knit-picking. Behind this whole idea of islam beign violent is a bunch of nut case fundamentalist christians who you would laugh your ass off if you heard them speaking. Congratulations on listening to the message of complete fascist dumbasses who's only positive contribution to the world will be to make the rest of us laugh and piss ourselves. They hate muslims because muslims believe that mohammed was a prophet sent to unite people after jesus failed.

Mohammed was not a "warlord". Not in the Koran he isn't, and if it does say this in the Koran than it is not widely known among muslims. What actually happened in history may be another story btu back then certain types of violence were common place or socially acceptable and normal muslims wouldn't even know about any of that. He was an army commander of a city called Medina, his job was to protect the city. He is seen by muslims as a protector and someone who acted in defense, often strategically(ie if he had to lie to win a battle he would). Jesus said some pretty damn fucked up contrary to christian values shit. It's one thing to say these books are dumb and outdated, that I can agree with but don't start making comparisons between islam and christianity. It's easy to pick out all the bad stuff that's cleary wrong and ignore all the good stuff. Wasn't there a thread before about all the insanely fucke dup shit in the bible and insanely immoral things that saints abnd prophets have done/said? I'm sure that even the absolute worst shit that mohammed said can be paralleled by the bible. Doesn't any of this ever occur to you when you see this shit? It's not the little dumb things in these constantly self contradictive books that matters anyway, its the sum of everything. Whenever someone tries to tell you that an entire group of people is deeply and unchangeably violently motivated and/or out to kill you you should ask yourself if what you're seeing is too good to be true. Cause you are beign idealistic. You just want to believe the problem is as simple as 1 group of people you don't belong to.

Hence religion is the root of every problem?

Wow you really kicked yourself in the ass back there.

You do realise that was his point right?

Not to mention that the Chinese government, possibly the most opressive government in the world right now is atheist.

No I don't think so either. Nothing's ever a coincidence and nothing this serious is that simple.

Stating their ethnicity or differences without stating what the real cause of their problem is is worse than not stating their differences at all. That's the easiest propaganda tool to use, no it's not lying, just simply leaving out the most important part.

Anything goes at a rave. That's the first thing I heard abotu raves before I went to one. Lol. Seriously, all styles fit. Plus no one cares, that's what's great about raves.

The point I was trying to make is that there is no situation.

I'm not brainwashed by Ian, I agreed with him before ever knowing what his opinion was. I am my own person thanks. I don't believe what every person tells me no matter how smart they are.

You think you aren't welcome in those places but I really beg to differ and I really don't want to argue. None of you are sayin anything. It doesn't change anything either way. People who say relgion is the root of all problems don't exactly have a way of solving this problem. All I'm getting from this is you have a problem that other people have a problem. Someone has to be the strong one, glad to see you're waiting on the rest of the hopeless world. Sad thing is you'll never know what they think anyway.

There are only two choices. Accept them or don't accept them. You can't destroy them and you can't understand them. Understanding isn't always possible, sometimes you have to accept that.

Really none of this matters at all now. I'm contradicting myself in trying to convince anyone. No matter how intelligent people are they just need to fall from a really high cliff before they understand. We're on a damn high cliff as a society so see you all on the long way down. I'll be looking forward to the wiser society that follows.

And best of wishes, I hope none of you die.

dun dun duuuun...

Any idiot could put together a good argument of how religion is the root of all problems. Fact of the matter is that poeple like Harris completely overlook the fact that all this shit happens even in the absense of religion(the holocaust, the invasion of iraq, pretty much everything). Intelligent people construct intelligent debates but when wisdom is lacking things get overlooked. Also any idiot knows that no matter whether you wipe them out, they'll keep comming back so you have to find a solution that includes everybody or it won't be a real solution. In short anything that anyone has to say abotu relgion being the root of all problems is completely useless so they have to stop being lazy and think of something else or accept reality. Any idiot knows that all differences come to a point of causing problems based on the nature of human beings. I'm pretty sure we proved a long time ago that we can't get rid of our differences.

When the population was relgious their strategy was to convince the population that other groups of people were directly against their faith and a threat to their way of life. When the population is not relgious than the strategy is to convince them that other groups of people are directly against their non-religiousness and a threat to their way of life.

Sorry for saying the same thing over and over. As long as we have differences they will use those differences against us. That will be forever.

I don't agree with Scott, in fact I know he's wrong but I don't think that he is racist. He simply lacks knowledge of the subject and doesn't want to explore beyond what the media or old scared/racist people have to say. Or maybe he still considers the media the most trust worthy source of information or maybe he thinks that atheists and satanists are as wise as they are intelligent. I don't know but I know that he's usually man enough to admit he's wrong and in this case I think we just aren't considered credible enough to convince him. Although I don't know who would be. No doubt that he should definitely read up on the subject before saying anything about it though. I mean it really pisses me off when people say dumb shit like that, I can't imagine how I'd feel if I was actually muslim. It's just a matter of basic respect to at least make sure you know what they're religion is about and what it has caused if you're going to make authorative and "factual" claims about it. Don't assume Basdini and I haven't explored the subject just because you wouldn't have. Not everyone is the same. I won't assume that you don't want to know what the truth is.


Scott,
You do know at least one muslim though you might not have been aware. You know my friend Kaz, do you think she should be wiped off the planet? She is muslim and believes deeply in her faith. She has believed in it at least since we were twelve. She's not muslim just because her parents are muslim. Yeah I know she doesn't wear a hajib, that's because people aren't as dumb and brainwashed as you think that they'd follow somethign word per word without having any of their own ideas. She is incredibly smart and kind and the world needs more people like her, not less. I know you're gonna say "that's just one muslim, they're not all bad" but just keep in mind that's what every person prejudice against a certain group of people will say about that group of people, that some of them are okay. She's not just 1 person, she's the majority. So maybe if you don't feel like reading the Koran but would like some insight you could ask her some questions about what she believes. If you think that she's worthy of your respect and understanding than you'll also see that she deserves the same for the group of people that she is categorised with.

Islam teaches that those who follow islam are destined to and therefor conversion is useless. It also teaches that christians and jews have exactly the same god and by following those relgions, it's the same as beign muslim. Which is why as invaders muslims always offered free worship. The teaching of islam as pertaining to other relgions is to accept them. Making anything you say about a few crazy bastards useless since they aren't following the religios teachings. It's hilarious to watch people fretting over problems that either don't exist or which doN't have any places in the poeple's lives who are talkign about them to begin with. When muslims start banging at your door handing you pamphlets, let me know. Until then you're eating air. Or should I say propaganda. What's even more hillarious is hearing it from poeple who's ancestors killed anyone who didn't follow their relgion and who either think this didn't count or that muslims did the same.

Has anyone ever actually met someone like that? Has anyone actually ever heard of a religion which teaches that? It's called propaganda.

There's no reason why you can't get along with religious people or poeple who follow traditions of their ancestors. If you can't get along with those people that's a choice you make. Stop making everythign about superficial differences. This has nothing to do with religion and neither does the israeli/palestine conflict. When did this become about their customs and culture? Their customs and culture are probably french like all the other french people who aren't black. People have whatever space in society that you allow them.

Also I think the world would be boring if we were all assimilated into one culture, there'd be nowhere to run from our society. Why don't we just ban colours? Maybe all music styles should just blend into one music style so that we can all get along.

6 years ago all i heard was "the scene is dead, it used to be different, it was so much better, too bad you missed it" and poeple are still saying it now. Even people who started raving 3 years ago are saying it. Did I miss something?

What kind of nerve do you have talking about PLUR and acceptance and understand and then posting this crap??? Talk hyppocritical geez(I'm saying geez a lot today).

This is the perfect example of why PLUR pisses people off. Cause all you plur ppl talk abotu yourselves liek you're so much better than everyone else and as if you are the epitomy of the rave scene. Puleease grow up and practive what you preach while you're at it. You don't even know what a single one of the words in plur mean.

Just because one spends their day peeling potatoes(which is stuff that people like me avoid at any cost) it doesn't mean you have to hate people for actually doing what they like. Besides when people at desk jobs actually do work they usually have to use their brains. Nobody gets paid to do nothing douche. If they're doing nothing it's cause they're waiting for important shit to do mmkay. It's harder than working in a kitchen.

And wtf is with people taking facebook disses personally?

Christ man.

The existance of facebook irritates me as well. I mean wtf. If I had children I would let them watch porn and gore and be exposed to all the adult crap they possibly could but I wouldn't let them use facebook.

Happy birfday.

I think the way the US is getting involved in this(funny how musharaff seems to automatically agree to do everyhting they tell him to even though all the pressure of his whole entire country was never enough before..) is just for show. Well I mean duh, I know. I guess it all works out for the best though. I'm just so flabbergasted at how easily they could actually get stuff done when they want to.. I mean the palestine-israel talks.. might not do any good but just the fact they were abvle to accomplish that much and that they could have done so all along so easily yet chose not to. It's just retarded how easy this stuff was. Leaving one letter or voice mail kind of retarded.

Thanks :)

I don't wanna give excessive advice cause past this point I am being excessive and cheesy but last commentary... and I also am not trying to judge anyone or to say that you are the same as me cause I know you're not but I must say something.

I know how it feels to want to connect with your inner child and I know how E can make you feel that you've acheived that. I won't argue with that because yes in some way you indeed have but I'd liek to inspire you to think of the ways in which you haven't. It makes you feel connected because you feel happy and full of wonder like you were back then. You weren't on drugs back then though. The world is still filled with as much wonder and you will always be who you once were, nothing can ever take that away from you. You can never be the same again but you can feel the same. At some point I spent so much time trying to be the same. At some point I had to remind myself that I already am but that at some point I just forgot about the place where I went to escape and I forgot how to appreciate all the wonders around me that were once all that mattered in the end. Thinking of how much there really is fills me with inexplicable glee. The sound of leaves rustling or water falling, the feel of the suns warmth so perfect on your skin or a falling snow flake. It's all so perfect. What more could you ask for?

to say what?

I have used it many times. I have used almost everything there is to use. And I am only being hyppocritical in the sense that at one time in my life I was the same.

Some experiences can only be repeated a certain numbre of time for you to get anymore out of them. I was interested in history long before I ever used a drug or even smoked a cigarette. I am greatful for all the different worlds drugs have brought me to and I won't cease to visit new ones. Believe what you want though, it's your world not mine.

It's the simple things in life often that make people happy. These things(aside from drugs) are more like needs for our emotional health and even those who find great meaning in life will most often strive for them. I'm under the impression that it's rare for this to be ALL people care about. Though when they are selfish about these things it certainly seems so.



This must really suck for you. What could possibly be more meaningless than synthesised meaning? You have to find the real beauty of the world that you personally can truly appreciate and you will appreciate the world much more than E can ever make you. All it has to be is real and true and absolute. Meaning is then no longer necessary outside of the meanign you chose for you yourself.

And that's the problem children taking E. If you reach that plateau before you have found real happiness by yourself than it's easy to see why one would feel hopeless without it, that you would believe that this plateau is impossible to reach without it or that happiness doesn't have a more stable form and cease to bother even trying to find it.

Salmon Ella ella.. ella..

I'll probably check out Inuyasha very soon. Bleach is probably my all time favourite anime tv series. It's the perfect mix of humour, death, samurais and ideas about life and death. Come to think of it my avatar is Rukia from Bleach. I want a Kon for christmas.

Can I give you a massage?