Haha, cool. Maybe I'll submit you some stuff. Can you further explain the documentary a bit..?

Eh? I do too... unless u sent it in the last like, hour or so. I check and respond to my PMs. As far as I know...

Where do you live? I have no vehicle...
What about Saturday late afternoon/early evening? Or Sunday afternoon/evening? Depending on where you live it's not so easy for me to pick her up, if you have a vehicle that might be better for her so she isn't cold outside?

They're both a Welfarist organization as well as a Corporation, both sides of them that I do not like. I do not like PETA.

!! How's tomorrow evening!? Later on like, I will for sure be home by 9pm. Does that work? Also do you think you'd be able to give me some sort of little carpetty thing for her? I have wooden floors :( I have been thinking she might need something to tear up. Maybe we could make her some sort of tearing-thing.

Ok well come drop her off at my place?

Anyways. We are all self righteous. We all think that our own opinions are the best ones, otherwise, we would have different opinions than the ones we have now. So calling someone self-righteous is really stupid.

I'm out of this conversation now because

1- you're insane,

2- I am not preaching - I was responding to this POST which was preaching (hate) so take your heads out of your selfish asses long enough to see where the real preaching was coming from, and

3- You're pathetic, weak excuses for human beings if you feel no compassion. A very important part of you is missing, and yes you should feel guilty for committing cruelty or something is severely wrong with you. So, go fuck yourselves, but not the other animals.

p.s. all the energy you spent trying to get me upset was wasted, because your idiotic flaunting and celebration of cruelty is nothing new or special, we've seen it all before. "Oooh I'm eating a hamburger it's sooo good" ... yeah well.. I'm just bawling my eyes out now... *sarcasm*

Flax and hemp seed and other non-animal derived foods are even better for omega-3, and better processed by our body, without all the other crap. You might want to check into it, for your own sake.

LukePeril - we have been updated scientifically now. It turns out that fish do have feelings. They have nociceptors. Have been proven to have working nerves.

Your suffering (or mine, from your b.s.) is nothing compared to what the animals are going through.

The point of being vegan is not to COMPLETELY eliminate suffering, which we realize be impossible. The point is to eliminate as much of it as possible.



It makes no difference because I'd never been talked to about veganism before. If I HAD been exposed to it by a stranger, I would have taken to it too (and I wish that a stranger had talked to me about it, so that I could have gone to it sooner).

And for the thousandth time, if you will please notice, I did not randomly come onto the board and start a new thread to preach. I am responding in the correct thread.



I'm quite in touch with my emotions thank you, comfortable with them enough to be empathetic to others and have compassion for them. Maybe I care enough about people too, to tell them about the harmful shit that's in animal products that's hurting them.



What is laughing about seals getting gored up, if it's not mean? Any reasonable person would call that mean. I haven't heard one reasonable argument here, just a bunch of banter and stupidity, over what names people would like to call me, instead of looking a the issues themselves.

Reason and logic mixed with a conscience. No religion, since I'm an "atheist". About 3 years ago I decided to make my mind an open book for new things to come in, so I could consider them and adapt to new situations if they are reasonable.



I was practicing poi and martial arts with a raw vegan chef friend I had in Calgary. He fed me the most amazing meal that I had ever tasted or felt. It was the most fulfilling thing I'd ever eaten, and made me very full even though it did not look like it would. Remember, I was an omnivore and had no plans on going vegan and believed that since I was a "natural omnivore", it would never ever happen, and that veganism was "like vegetarian but more extreme". The meal consisted of a very interesting, hearty sandwich made on some sort of "bread" he'd made in a dehydrator. Raw cuisine, it's very different. There were "cheeses" made of nuts and stuff and rawlafel in it. What put me over the top was the desert. A big gooey double-chocolate raw vegan cookie with a layer of sweet almond butter in the center, and a couple raw vegan chocolate truffles that melted in my mouth. The best part was that it was completely good for me too. The pure energy of it shocked me. This was not what I thought vegan food would taste and feel like.

The guy who fed it to me has now been raw vegan for over 15 years. He is also the most healthy person I know. He was the proof, right in front of me, that it's possible to be healthier than anyone else at the same time as not eating anything from an animal. The proof was in how I felt when I ate the food. In one moment I realized that what I had been taught and thought I knew about nutrition until this point had been false. It was just one more thing that they don't properly teach you in school. I could get all my nutritional needs met, without exploiting animals (or minimizing that as much as possible)! I'm a reasonable person, that's where my opinions are based. It became apparent that it's not reasonable to harm and exploit other animals if I don't need to. At first, I felt some animal product withdrawal (especially cheese) but that faded after about a month once the drugs in the animal products had left my body. Now I eat and feel better than I ever have before. It was also much much easier than I thought it would be; it looks a lot harder/more extreme from the outside. I only found out about the extent of animal cruelty in our society in he last several months, though. It shocks me how people can know about that and know how it's not needed, and still be apathetic, as though they are dead inside.

Well I did my best to keep it short. It's a pretty complicated subject and people are really fucking brainwashed, like I was.

You guys are such pathetic excuses. There's no point in freaking out, just shaking my head.

1. cucumber and tomatoes are not vegetables.

2. the majority of a vegan diet does not consist of vegetables.

3. you have no clue what you would feel like on a vegan diet, but it's not starving.

4. I'm not trying to turn you vegan, I know you're a lost, heartless cause.

p.s. I do not fall into the loose category of "hippie", and most "hippies" are not vegans.

I didn't want to keep wasting glow sticks. I started making some bright glow poi with water bottles and LEDs, but then it's hard to turn them on/off and wastes batteries, etc.

I was looking around to see what are some of the cooler LED products on the market. One of the places that looked really awesome was Flowtoys: [ www.flowtoys.com ]

Flowtoys look amazing, are expensive, and are supposed to break once in a while.

Then I was pointed to a guy who is based in Montreal (St Laurent and Prince Arthur). He was the original, and designed his own light system call the "all-light" where you can program a whole ton of your own patterns, based on your favorite colors and stuff. I ended up buying some all-lights and a couple small-soft juggling balls with blue LEDs in them. I switched the blue LEDs out, put the all-light LEDs in instead. Then I used the blue lights in some handles I made with tubing he was nice enough to give me, and made a hemp net weave to hold the juggling balls to make them into poi. I like the option of having the handles lit up as well as the poi heads.

His site is [ www.lightupandjuggle.com ] and I thought that his prices were very reasonable compared to flowtoys, and his products seem much more durable (and with the juggling balls made into poi, much softer) and he is easily accessible for extra parts. Plus you get to not pay for shipping (and not waste fuel and material for shipping).

If you were at Black Magick, you saw me with them, I had them on strobe-rainbow a lot of the time.

Does anyone else have any favorite glow toy companies, or something cool you made at home?

xoxo

nice try, genius

Unfortunately they seem to be hypocrites as they celebrate Animal Welfarism as opposed to Animal Rights/Animal Liberation. This is why many in the movement don't support them, because they try to please everyone and end up not following any one set motto. Many vegans do not support PETA.



You only call liberationists "terrorists" because the government (who is backed by the people who stand to financially lose) started that a few years ago... I think it is an insult to the people who have suffered from REAL terrorism. Real terrorism is when you are actually violent against others, like this: [ video.google.com ] or when you go blow yourself up on a bus full of people. Terms get twisted so that you will follow along with stupid laws the government makes. It's sad that their propaganda has worked so well.



Hence how they are not actually Liberationists, rather they are Welfarists now it seems.



It makes ME sick too! If anyone wants to support an actual non-profit non-corrupt non-hypocritical Animal Rights organization that doesn't use stupid tasteless ad campaigns etc, check out Friends of Animals: [ www.friendsofanimals.org ]


also WHY THE FUCK are you making threads like this again.

Hey tell it to the person who started this thread. As I've said before, I would NEVER EVER start a thread on this here, for that exact reason. But I'm not going to completely ignore it when it happens. If someone came on here and made a post about gays, for example, I'd jump all over that shit and in a very serious way too.



No, it's an attempt to get you to think in ways you haven't before and understand a different point of view.

Shindy, at least we agree on something. I don't eat lettuce either. So we have something in common :p

[ Rave.ca ] is not outside reality is it? You have a good point though, I guess I could have just turned his hate article into a joke.

No. Only when I am trying to defend animal rights, non-smoking environments, and to defend gays/minority groups from unfair discrimination, or thinking about affording musical gear.

The rest of the time, I'm smiling and laughing and making merry.

:P

I know it was a joke, I'm not blind.

Maybe it's because I'm being honest while many vegans are scared to tell you their thoughts, because they know that people will become defensive over it and hate them. It's so sad (was about to say hilarious, but it is more sad) how you guys will simply hear facts, and then think I'm trying to guilt trip you. I think that says something interesting about the facts.


I've got a good question for ya. What would you do/think/feel if you saw someone beating a dog? Most people would say they wouldn't be happy about it, though that's a lot less than is being done to the other animals who have just as many nerve cells as the dog does.

Yes, really, cigarettes are a drug. Just because something is "legal" people often get the misconception that it's not a drug (i.e. alcohol). Caffeine is a drug, but when people do caffeine it's not spread throughout the air so that everyone else has to deal with it. Cigarettes are a mind altering substance and have thousands of chemicals in them and also make many people sick (incl. me and many people who are less tolerant of shit and less determined to stay and support the scene than me, who have already left the rave scene because of it). I'm not going to just "leave" because some people chose to smoke-box the party.

It's one thing to have some smoke in the parties, but when you get tons of chain smokers who refuse to go outside, this is what happens (see my photo on the left). A lot more people have left the scene than you realize over it. I never thought I'd say this, but I might actually switch to the club scene over it. Being pushed out of my own world because of people's selfishness to force their smoke into it!



Bingo.

You know, I really like salvia once in a blue moon but due to the odor that many people find offensive, I would not smoke it inside unless everyone in the room was fine with it. No matter HOW cold it was outside, because it's really not their issue if it's cold outside or not, it's mine.



If there is not a reasonable space to spin them, I either don't or make the chains super short by wrapping them around my fingers. Not nearly as much fun as spinning them full out (just like I'm sure it's not as nice for you to have your smoke outside as opposed to inside) but HEY I know how to COMPROMISE. :) I don't say "get out of my way, I'M a poi spinner, now you must all be uncomfortable and squish together more so that *I* can have me my poi room.."

BTW I assure you I am just as addicted to spinning my poi (full-out and not wrapped around my fingers, at that) as people are to their smokes.

Also I designed my own glow poi now to make them super soft just in case they ever DO hit anyone on the dance floor.




If *I* found anyone doing it, they wouldn't be doing it any more (and my backpack would not leave my back for the rest of the night either, hahaha)

Here's a clear, swift, logical way to explain my standpoint on which freedoms deserve to be protected and which do not (no need to read the entire post, just this bit):

If you honestly give a damn about freedom, you won't completely take away the freedom of others. Asking people to be more compassionate in their lifestyle is not asking them to GIVE UP their freedom, it's asking them to NOT ABUSE their freedom.

Taking away the ESSENTIAL freedom of others (freedom to not be confined, to not be tortured, etc) is ABUSE of freedom, and not an ESSENTIAL freedom itself.

So, I'll stand up for ESSENTIAL freedoms as opposed to ABUSE of freedoms.

***************************************************



This is totally getting quoted in the "top (not smart) things omnivores say to vegans" thread. Heehee! Thanks.




I've felt and said all of those things sober and I know a lot of other people who have too. I think it takes someone really insecure about themselves to see a problem with other people who are able to be nice and compliment each other and love the music on their own whether they are sober or not.




It's not like you can't do it all at the same time. Unfortunately even with all those wonderful things you are doing, it still doesn't come close to dealing with the impact of the not being vegan part, when it comes to the environment (I think). Consider that being omnivore wastes 1.3 million gallons of water per year compared with a vegan lifestyle. That means I could leave my tap/shower running continuously and it wouldn't waste as much as that. About the oceans, they are quickly becoming devoid of all life, and who knows what is happening to the ancient primordial organisms that we evolved from in the very deep parts. We drag nets that are several miles long over the ocean floor, the "walls of death" which get EVERYTHING, whales and dolphins included and this is why they are going extinct. Reefs, which support many different wild species, become increasingly more rare. The apocalypse has already happened for many species, and we were the ones who are unnecessarily creating it. About the algae overgrowing; it is the fish who tend to that algae and keep it in check. They keep it like a garden. When you kill all the fish by either dumping toxic waste from livestock in there, or fishing them to eat them (or both), there algae has no more gardeners and overgrows and kills other things too. We really fucked up. One of the best ways to stop contributing to this tragedy is to stop supporting the industries who cause the MOST damage to it, being livestock/agriculture that feeds livestock and other unnecessary industries. I see veganism as not only stuff that does not contain animals/byproducts, but that would also do the least harm to them in the wild as well. Therefore I don't see overusing oil as very vegan, because of all the spills etc that wipe out wildlife, among other aspects of that. Yes oil is useful for some things but we definitely overuse. I respect you bigtime for taking whatever steps you take to reduce your footprint. For the sake of future generations of all species, including humans, I wish more people in the world were like that.

Ok that's fair enough, I see your point. I have known a lot of people who go outside to smoke their weed for that reason.

That's actually a really good point.

I think people shouldn't be allowed to smoke meth inside parties either because even though we can't smell it, it still affects us and I definitely do not want to have any of that in my system.

I guess the thing to do is come in a gas mask when I can afford one and wrap my coat in a plastic bag as soon as I walk in the door. You'll be able to pick me out really easily at future parties.

Yes I am tenacious :P

I accept the fact that other people are not vegan. If I said I respected it though, I would be lying and hypocritical.

I don't hate you though, and I don't think you're horrible, I just can't force myself to say that I respect the choice. Fully respecting it would require me to not have a huge problem with the way that animals are being treated.

I'm someone who's trying to convince people to stop causing unnecessary harm and suffering. That doesn't mean I'm BETTER, but since you asked, that's who I am.



I'm not telling, I'm asking (or even begging).



The right of the human is a big part of it too. So many resources could be saved by not eating animal products, all that food could go to hungry humans instead. Also because animal products and meat cause SO many illnesses in humans, I feel that if people give veganism a shot then it's not only good for other animals but good for themselves too.

The roots of my animal rights feelings are in my human rights feelings. I was into human rights very much my whole life, until I went vegan and now I see that it's all related. We are animals. The things we do to other animals hurt ourselves and other humans too.



I like you to... I like pretty much everyone :P That's why I care so much, I think.

You can talk in french if you like, I'm bilingual, I'm just not very good at writing it on the computer.

Betty_Haze, maybe we don't go to the same parties, that could be true. I'm also a musician by occupation and music is very much my life, so that's a big reason for me to go as well. There are many different reasons that people go to raves, and the compassion thing is definitely one of most common ones.

o.O Cigarettes are drugs, Ashley. By forcing other people to inhale smoke from cigarettes, that is forcing drugs on them.

The reason why most non-smokers (including me) are OK with being around weed smoke is because for many reasons weed smoke does not fuck us up the way cigarette smoke does.

The person who gets it pregnant so that you can drink its maternity milk.



Well yeah that's my entire position on it. I'm against rape and such too, but not only when it's committed against humans, when it's committed against ANYONE, ANY feeling being.



It's not a coincidence that one of the 3 food booths at Eclipse is vegan. There was Crudessence's Solstice party too. I've been to a bunch of other parties with vegan food, I know a raw vegan out west who does the food for raves there and will be at Shalmhala this year. There were (are) parties all the time that are half electronica or jam gatherings, half vegan potluck.

I want you to take a look at the walk-by food that is handed out at parties next time. Fruit. Hummus. It's almost always vegan, so that everyone can eat it.




I don't want to be mean, but I can't understand how anyone could miss the relation between raves and compassion. A scene that spawned a motto "plur", where you can dance and dress however you want without being judged by it, where messages in the music itself promote peace and love... I've been to parties that were themselves fundraisers for humanitarian causes. Earth Dance. Just Dance in Vancouver. There's a reason why so many peacenlove "spiritual" types are drawn to various dance/rave scenes, why that "Ohm" symbol is so popular in it. It's common knowledge that many outcasts from school and other social situations get into the rave scene, because they feel accepted and even loved there.



It's a personal choice to rape a kid. It's a personal choice to burn your mother alive. Something being a personal choice doesn't make it OK, or that other people shouldn't try to stand up against it to protect the victims of those actions.

No, because then the authoritar will profile you and use it against you unjustly. You can be proud of what you believe in without wanting the authoritar (rich authoritar who generally who stand to financially lose from the ideals you propose) to know who you are.



That was my initial reaction too.

Hey how's this for enforcement of that new proposal:

When I lived in Calgary I worked in a pizza place as the bar night girl (before going vegan). I had to leave the till for a second to go outside because people were having trouble getting into the restaurant. Why?

Because there was a fucking idiot slamming a guy's head repeatedly onto his cop car. Why? Because the guy had drunkenly called the cop a pig as he was driving by.

Girls were screaming for him to stop and he didn't. So I go outside and say to the cop, "WILL YOU PLEASE STOP MURDERING SOMEONE OUTSIDE MY SHOP? FOR FUCK SAKES!" (he was really slamming the guy's head, like, guy could have gotten a concussion and died for all I know). So he stopped.

We just glared at each other and I stomped back into my shop.

People who are on drugs (alcohol) are not really capable of making the best decisions sometimes in that state, and I don't think we should repeatedly slam their heads into cars because they don't want to be arrested for calling someone a pig. They are drunk, they call everyone names. Out of all people, cops should be the ones to uphold the peace regardless.

I think it's an insult to pigs to relate them to (most) cops anyways!! XD

Hehehe.

I sew my own clothing and am trying to find someone to buy organic materials from, like hemp, bamboo, coconut fibre, organic cotton etc - do you know if I'd be able to buy material from her?

If people thought they should have the freedom to confine, torture and rape other human beings, would you support that "freedom"?

Exactly, we are survivalists. And we don't need *this* to survive:

[ video.google.com ] (Joaquin Phoenix, Shaun Monson, Humanitarian Award)

"I was particularly impressed," says writer/director Shaun Monson, "with the manner in which Joaquin delivered his narration for the film. And I didn't really comprehend what he was up to until I was in the editing room many months later. Each time we recorded narration, which actually took a couple of years, Joaquin opted to read in a calculatedly matter-of-fact tone. This is brilliant because he was allowing for the facts and statistics alone to convey the subject matters' complicated emotions, their depth and severity." ---(maybe I can learn from that tone)

I personally feel that it is more important to defend CRUCIAL freedoms (not being exploited, confined, tortured) than defending NON-CRUCIAL freedoms (the evident freedom to harshly exploit others for things you don't need).

I'm sorry for being personally defensive. I'm a sensitive person and that's one of my flaws, communication, because I stay silent through all the horrors and don't say anything and then am confronted with something like that outright false and violent post (in the very place that I'd think people would be slightly less violent) and tried to add some facts to it, and ended up getting defensive. I didn't mean to start a big pissing fest. It's really not about me, or vegans/vegetarians and meat eaters anyways - it's about the animals and the issues themselves.

I tried to say that at the beginning, that I was presenting facts and not attacking anyone personally, and then I let my defensiveness get the best of me anyways.

It was the same shit in Jr High when I was the only one standing up for the gay kids who were being picked on. People got pissed off at me for standing up for something against what they'd been taught. Then I got defensive in return, and they hated me more.

Then in high school I didn't stand up for jack shit, and everyone loved me.

Then I found the rave scene and thought "well here's a place at least where people are more open minded and compassionate."

Now I'm finding out that I only thought the rave scene was more open minded and compassionate because there are more beings within the rave scene's circle of compassion, but it's not complete.

Yes and I have participated in and put on those industrial park warehouse parties...

...and it was not smokey. And we had a magnificent grungy but not smokey time.

Well then I guess smoking just has to be specifically prohibited at parties like everywhere else in the country has evolved to.

I'm less concerned about the short term and I'm more interested in what happens in the long run, which I think is not too far away in any case. I care about the children of today, not only the non-humans but the humans as well.

I don't care very much about the economy anyways. I see it as a big pack of imaginary shit that we created, and now it's collapsing around us. Pushing more fake money into banks and stuff is just a quick fix. We aren't meant to be living in all this luxury either. I think we should focus on minimizing our consumerism and for me, veganism is a big part of that. If I kept my shower running at full blast all year, I *still* would not be consuming the same amount of water as an omnivore. We're just patching holes now in something that will keep breaking until it's completely dismantled, because it was only a ever a house of cards to begin with.

Only ever a house of cards to begin with.

We need to establish what is real and what is not. Food is real. Land is real. So is the environmental crisis. The oceans are becoming graveyards, thousands upon thousands of species have been wiped out. Do you realise we have destroyed the ecosystems of an entire planet?! Fishing nets have swept across the ocean, wiping out a good portion of the intelligent life on this planet (dolphins), not to mention the toxic waste we have dumped into the ocean from the LAND livestock, we have chopped up the rain forest for our livestock which has wiped out so many species of animals including highly intelligent life like parrots and primates (and I have been personally involved in the lives of parrots and know that they are more highly evolved than humans in many ways). There aren't many planets like this floating around you know! You can't buy that with money!

There should only be as much money as there is of stuff. That quote from AlienZeD is really how I see it; we have a bunch of money printed by the world bank for shit that doesn't even exist, it makes no sense except to the ppl who control it all and care nothing about future generations because they are greedy a-holes who only care about their own asses until they die in the next 20 years or so.

ocean reefs become more and more rare, the dolphins and whales are rapidly disappearing, macaws are going extinct, everything else is going extinct - we are at the epitomy of the destruction of an entire planet, we, the virus.

WHEN WILL THE REST OF HUMANS LISTEN TO US, WHO HAVE WOKEN UP.

Before it's too late? Naw, it's more important to enjoy the tasty meat, right?

A black bean burger :D hehe

Wouldn't we have less land though because of the rising water from the melting ice? There would be flooding in many places.

The encouraging plant growth thing is kind of laughable to me though, since we keep cutting down all the rain forests en masse anyways for land to grow feed for livestock/for them to graze on, as well as paper etc... (why don't we just use email for phone bills now etc, I don't get it!).. I don't know how much of a difference it would make for the trees.

About the economy, that's a whole other can of worms to open. How you look at it depends on if you are under the impression that our money system holds any value. I'm gonna dig up something here that represents my thoughts on this subject really well:
----------------------------
AlienZeD said:

"this is what happens when you PRINT money and LEND it to the other banks at an interest rate.

It makes NO sense at all, I mean, how you can pay interest on money borrowed from the only legal entity that can print money?! It's like me saying, I have this priceless painting, I will lend it to you but you will owe me this same painting PLUS more of this same painting next year.... there's only one fricking painting!!

So yeah, money is going to collapse, I can't wait personally... we're all going to die!! (I mean, we are, aren't we?)"

Hey big_jo, I'm one of those people that think that plants probably feel on some level. If they do feel, that means eating a plant based diet is even more important, since it kills LESS plants because of all the plants that have to be fed to the animals to produce less amount of food...

It's a simple logical equation and I really feel sorry for anyone who isn't sharp enough to get it.

a = amount of plants (and other resources) it takes to make one pound of meat/dairy/egg

b = amount of plants it takes for one pound of vegan food itself

so...

a > b

very simple!! easy as gooey raw vegan apple pie made with quinoa.

oh than meat and other animal byproducts.. wheee

oops. what I meant was, nutrient value of vegan food matter is often and easily higher than that of animal products.

I think that might have dug us in deeper for the long run.

Ashley raves are a smoke free environment in every other city I have been to in Canada, with the exception of a few massives I went to, but that is different because they were in stadiums with a super high ceiling and the smoke did not hang in the air like in my picture to the right.



Forcing one's own drugs on other people in a public place is not plur.



Reread my post pls. I stated how plur had to be stood up for in the west n it was me and a shy few others who were standing up for it.

See I know you're just joking around now :)



Lol. For sure! So does livestock though, it produces more greenhouse gas than all trucks, cars, and planes combined.

...but I understand that global warming happens naturally as well.

The main issue is pollution itself IMO, not just the global warming thing.

We are so fukd XD