Basdini'S Secret
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Mon Jun 6, 2011 @ 2:47pm |
 Coolness: 145215 | your the one who is dodging the issue not me, i have already said i don't want to talk about it at the level of morality, i don't think it does any good, because it reduces the discussion to 'you re evil'...'no you re the one that is evil'...
concerning goldman sach's programmed bots...the point is that they work! Which validates their scientific value, they can accurately model the market, which neuters your assertion that it's astrology... the importance of the question i raised (machine or forces of nature) is that it compels you to answer the question about whether or not there are real economic laws (indeed, can economics even be a science). Can economics be said to have laws that are immutable like physics, chemistry, biology, geology etc? If you re a leftist you will say no, (the economy is thus a machine that can be tinkered with at will)...This is one place where leftist are, i believe, wrong. Leftist believe that they can practice economics by 'fiat', they believe that by decree they can change economic realities, this is the whole interventionism idea in nut shell (Keynes). This is wrong, there are real economic forces at play that are beyond the control of any individual or authority, we know this is true because of both theoretical considerations and empirical evidence (think about it on an empirical level, why did every communist country on earth, where the government would presumably have the most power, have a black market for goods, they could never stamp it out). There are just things a market can do that governments can't. Again think about it, like Von Misses said, once you realize that prices aren't just the price that one party pays another for goods and services, but rather like road sign for information then it becomes obvious why any form of price controls is un workable, the signals that are being sent get skewed and distorted. Similarly when we bail out the New York banks like in 08, we totally destroy the relationship between risk and gain... i would just like to underline the fact that i am NOT an anarcho capitalist, I DO believe government has a role to play, in my mind leftist don't seem to understand something even as basic as: 'winners must win and losers must lose.' that when we begin to play with this relationship, that's when things begin to get really messed up... |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» pencapchew replied on Mon Jun 6, 2011 @ 3:09pm |
 Coolness: 35605 | without growth capitalism fails |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Masa replied on Mon Jun 6, 2011 @ 3:12pm |
 Coolness: 158785 | No but seriously, I have to chime in:
basdini, while far from me to criticize your ideological views, you're actually using GOLDMAN SACHS as an argument for Hayekian economics, when it was probably the biggest beneficiary of the recent bank bailouts?!?! Wow.  |
| I'm feeling chaotic! right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy replied on Mon Jun 6, 2011 @ 3:33pm |
 Coolness: 106130 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
in my mind leftist don't seem to understand something even as basic as: 'winners must win and losers must lose.' that when we begin to play with this relationship, that's when things begin to get really messed up... Such a simplistic and... binary way of describing such complex beings. No wounder these so-called economic scientists/gurus are leading life on earth to the brink of extinction. |
| I'm feeling shiraz right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Thu Jun 9, 2011 @ 10:17am |
| Coolness: 145215 | no one said it was supposed to represent human beings...
we could be talking about corporations, for example, company A sells a good product has excellent service and their product is of reasonable price, company B has an inferior product, has poor service, and their product is overpriced. company A should see higher sales and be reward by a stock price increase while company B should see lower sales and be punished by fall in it's stock price that's all i meant but maybe this gets to the heart of the issue, in my mind the market is just a much better allocater of resources (sometimes, not always) than any 'authority' (government or outside force). There are simply thing that a market can do that the gov can't. Like back in 08 why did the gov have to bail out the new york banks? Because they couldn't be accused of not doing something. But, all of those bank are insolvent, so the gov has actually hurt the market... another point i want to address came up earlier and i didn't have time to deal with it but i would like to now...A lot of leftists will argue from the position that because the earth is finite capitalism is fatally flawed because it demands infinite growth...this seems convincing at first glance but i would like stress that it is a hyper simplification. Although i will concede that because capitalism literally is the transformation of the world around us by our reason (...back to faust! lol) there are serious issues to be considered with the environment and how we manage it...I would like to raise two points, First, leftist seem to raise this while at the same time forgetting their 10th grade physics classes, all the matter is still here! Literally. With the exception of the stuff now in space (satellites, stuff on the moon, voyager probes etc) everything is still here, we can't 'use up the earth'. I want to caution people that this isn't a license to do whatever we want, as i said before there are serious issues about how we manage the earth, however this brings me to my second point... Second, not all profit is accrued from processing new (or any) resources at least not in the classical way that leftists are thinking of. Stop for a second and think, ten years ago there were no 'Apps', but now there are, all these people creating them and selling them and all these people buying them and using them. This would seem to suggest that not all economic growth and profit comes from exploiting resources...isn't that what we are supposed to be creating? A knowledge economy? to conclude, I really think that leftists need to ditch their neo malthusian line, in favor of something a little bit more 'new dealish', although of course i don't agree with everything about that, i could at least respect that, but this garbage, along with marxism and a lot of the postmodern oriented leftist thought (ie. structuralist), this stuff is just crap, it's not helping you out... |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Holly_Golightly replied on Thu Jun 9, 2011 @ 12:53pm |
 Coolness: 158750 | Marx wrote some economics but he was first a sociology writer.. i still think that the conflict theory makes sens... way much more than Durkheim's functionalist model (which have huge gaps concerning inheritance phenomena in our societies imho)... but whatever i don't think it's a socio convo but about economics..
you link Malthusian principles to the left thoughts which i don't see the purpose at all.. maybe because of his wanting of gov. to have a hand in population control as his aspiration to end poverty.. but basically what i understood of his thinkings (i have to admit in classes a long time ago.. and i have a basic economic background but studied in cinema, sociology, business/marketing..) is that if a population go uncontrolled it grows exponentially (2,4,8,16..) when supplies of food will grow arithmetically (2,3,4,5..) so in the end it is just natural that losers must lose and winners must win and that gov. welfare system is vowed to lost anyway..etc in other words save the people in your safe boat but let the other humans of this world drawn bc if you try to save them you all going to drawn... <--- well that precise example at a macro-economic level (the boat representing let say america and the drawing people Africa...)\\ you say to forget about morality... what morality?! economics, politics, sociology, sciences... everything comes down to ethics in my opinion. basdini are you in favor of cultural relativism or you are more the kind of guy to be like Plato? and in your opinion what should we do with the losers? rich people exist because poor people exist. non? there is a winner bc there is a loser. this is the beauty of capitalism! here i am shouting this shouting that but the real truth is simple as this: there is corporations with hierarchic ladder of salary and as soon as you make it in that world and you make a shit loads of money, you kind of forget about the people down the ladder at 7$/hour... and why is the ceo, cto or vp makes millions each year :)? because there is people down there who do way less and get their bum bum rapped each day of their working life :) that was not made to be rude at all. of course there is companies who respect their workers but talking as average here.. did you read "Germinal" from Zola? |
| I'm feeling hitched right now.. | |
| Good [+2]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy replied on Fri Jun 10, 2011 @ 11:49am |
| Coolness: 106130 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
another point i want to address came up earlier and i didn't have time to deal with it but i would like to now...A lot of leftists will argue from the position that because the earth is finite capitalism is fatally flawed because it demands infinite growth...this seems convincing at first glance but i would like stress that it is a hyper simplification. Although i will concede that because capitalism literally is the transformation of the world around us by our reason (...back to faust! lol) there are serious issues to be considered with the environment and how we manage it...I would like to raise two points, First, leftist seem to raise this while at the same time forgetting their 10th grade physics classes, all the matter is still here! Literally. With the exception of the stuff now in space (satellites, stuff on the moon, voyager probes etc) everything is still here, we can't 'use up the earth'. I want to caution people that this isn't a license to do whatever we want, as i said before there are serious issues about how we manage the earth, however this brings me to my second point... Arguably, the earth has had pretty much the same quantity of brut matter for the past few billion years. Apart from meteors falling from the sky. Yet, human life on earth is dependant oppon a delicate balance of factors that have been reunited for a very short periode of time when compared to the earths projected age. We cant "use up the earth" or even destroy it, but we can use up all the ressources we need to survive, and we can and are rendering it hostile to human life. If the Japanese had not used a strict social and environmental control on there islands a couple thousand years ago, their society would have collapsed as others have done elswhere. History is rife with exaples of human society's collapsing because of shortsighted management. Originally Posted By BASDINI
Second, not all profit is accrued from processing new (or any) resources at least not in the classical way that leftists are thinking of. Stop for a second and think, ten years ago there were no 'Apps', but now there are, all these people creating them and selling them and all these people buying them and using them. This would seem to suggest that not all economic growth and profit comes from exploiting resources...isn't that what we are supposed to be creating? A knowledge economy? Without ressources, "apps" are quite useless. Like most of the crap in our lives. Its all about fighting boredom. |
| I'm feeling shiraz right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss replied on Sat Jun 11, 2011 @ 7:08pm |
 Coolness: 129735 | I actually fell asleep reading this thread |
| I'm feeling sunshine right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» raisinlove replied on Mon Jun 13, 2011 @ 3:54pm |
 Coolness: 62965 | Originally Posted By BLISSS
I actually fell asleep reading this thread we could translate it into ebonics to make it more interesting if you want ;P |
| I'm feeling ultra right now.. | |
| Good [+2]Toggle ReplyLink» Trey replied on Mon Jun 13, 2011 @ 8:22pm |
 Coolness: 102780 | I bet he wasn't sleepy as I was when I listened to his 2008 promo mix.
j/k  |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» greatjob replied on Mon Jun 13, 2011 @ 8:25pm |
 Coolness: 282470 | Originally Posted By TREY
I bet he wasn't sleepy as I was when I listened to his 2008 promo mix. j/k
hah |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Tue Jun 14, 2011 @ 1:45pm |
| Coolness: 145215 | Originally Posted By TREY
I bet he wasn't sleepy as I was when I listened to his 2008 promo mix. j/k
ooooo eeee ahhhhh eee ooooh! |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss replied on Tue Jun 14, 2011 @ 2:17pm |
| Coolness: 129735 | Lol touché...
Although in all fairness that mix wasn't that bad, a bit old granted, but some good stuff on there For those who missed it you can grab it here [ www.rave.ca ] |
| I'm feeling sunshine right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Trey replied on Tue Jun 14, 2011 @ 8:13pm |
| Coolness: 102780 | I still listen to "Warm Ravers, Horny Summer" mix. Or was it "Warm Summer, Horny Ravers."
anyhow, you're lucky I didn't post 'cause you would've been in a coma. it's summer and my brain's on chillax mode. heh |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Fri Jun 17, 2011 @ 11:16am |
| Coolness: 145215 | Originally Posted By DATABOY
If the Japanese had not used a strict social and environmental control on there islands a couple thousand years ago, their society would have collapsed as others have done elswhere. History is rife with exaples of human society's collapsing because of shortsighted management. see this is that neo malthusianism again... Without ressources, "apps" are quite useless. Like most of the crap in our lives. Its all about fighting boredom. so, you admit you were wrong??? was this about whether the apps were useful? No it was about whether profit can be derived from other sources besides raw material extraction. Seeeee this is the problem with you leftists...it's never about what you actually say it is, it's always about something different so you can never be wrong... in some ways i look at the left as a cruel joke, I'm the one for taxing the banks with a securities exchange tax (1% Sales Tax on all securities sold options, futures, credit default swaps) I'm the one that was against the bailout and against any future bailouts of the banks. I'm the one who wants to break the power of wall street on the government. I'm the one that's against interventionism (bush's wars are wrong than so are obama's) In what way do you guys stand up to the little guy? how can you defend non voluntary forced participation in things like health care and Social Security, it's tyranny, If I don't want services why should I pay for them? I don't have to go to a hospital if I don't want to, but, I have to pay for it. here something fun, ask yourself why should we tax people different to pay for them same services? Presumably, it costs the same to treat a broken arm for a person who earns 1 000 000 a year as a person who earns 10 000. Shouldn't they be taxed the same (for medical service)? Why should we tax the rich person more (for medical services) isn't that unfair? Why should he pay more for the same product? That's absurd. The answer might be something like "well the system won't work unless we tax rich people more (for medical services)" See now you have a problem because that means your using the health system as a form of wealth redistribution. (this is not an arg against progressive taxation just when it's applied to a specific services like health care) 'Voluntarism' that's where it's at, don't force me to be part of your little social engineering project, Legalize competition, allow people to buy and sell medical services as they see fit (within a framework of licensing of course) if the government system is so great won't people choose to stick with it? If someone else can provide the same or better services for cheaper isn't that a good thing??? What is the government afraid of? Oh yeah, 'an erosion of it's power'. remember, leftists don't have answers to these questions so if you bring them up you're just evil! |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss replied on Fri Jun 17, 2011 @ 12:00pm |
| Coolness: 129735 | I fell asleep again... |
| I'm feeling sunshine right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Masa replied on Fri Jun 17, 2011 @ 12:04pm |
| Coolness: 158785 | basdini, just so you know, your arguments are nothing new. Ask yourself why some of us STILL feel like leftists (or centre-left in my own case) after you keep rehashing the same age-old arguments. Update » Masa wrote on Fri Jun 17, 2011 @ 12:05pm Hell, ask yourself why quite a few societies as a whole choose to be centre-left. |
| I'm feeling chaotic! right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy replied on Fri Jun 17, 2011 @ 4:01pm |
| Coolness: 106130 | So, basic human rights, healthcare, should be proportional to how much money you have?
Basdini, Is there anything more important to you than personal wealth? If I follow your train of thought, Should all laws not be voluntary? How About we go back to the laws of the jungle...that's what the right has been dreaming about hasn't it? or is it only as far as the markets are concerned? Might is right... right? Your paradigms belong to an other era, one where trees covered the land, where there where plenty of fish in the sea and humans didn't posses the means of killing all life on earth. Being reckless bears far greater consequences today than in the days of Adam Smith. |
| I'm feeling shiraz right now.. | |
| Good [+3]Toggle ReplyLink» recoil replied on Fri Jun 17, 2011 @ 6:35pm |
 Coolness: 86520 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
First, leftist seem to raise this while at the same time forgetting their 10th grade physics classes, all the matter is still here! Literally. With the exception of the stuff now in space (satellites, stuff on the moon, voyager probes etc) everything is still here well you're right about that much. all the matter is still here in one form or another. Originally Posted By BASDINI
we can't 'use up the earth'. seriously? I can't believe you said that. are you just trying to split hairs, semantically? sure the atoms and molecules will always be there in one form or another, but we are indeed using up drinkable water, arable land, and resources that are *essential* for our survival. take Lake Ontario for example.. if I take a cab ride down to the lake, drink some of the water, and catch some fish for dinner, I'm gonna make myself sick. because even though there's almost 400 cubic miles of fresh water in Lake Ontario, it's been so poisoned by 2 centuries of pollution, that not only is a health risk to drink, but even to swim. I read first-hand accounts of French explorers from the 17th and 18th century around here in Southern Ontario. they said the water in the rivers and creeks was so pure it tasted sweet to drink. and what is now Hamilton Harbour was one of the largest wetlands in North America - the area was teeming with wildlife.. deer, buffalo, bears, wolves, pumas... the water was so full of many species of edible fish - sturgeon, salmon, trout, etc - that all you needed to do was canoe through the shallows and dip a net in the water. 
within the space of a few decades, they put a stop to that. even by the 1850s, the lake water in Toronto was so polluted with bacteria and industrial contaminants that it was considered foul. and needless to say, Hamilton Harbour isn't exactly teeming with fish and game anymore 
and there used to be so many migrating birds here, that they'd darken the sun. among them the Passenger pigeon. settlers in Ontario and Quebec and elsewhere would just club them out of the sky. or fire a shotgun into the air, and several of them would fall dead. boom - instant dinner for their family. they became marketed as a very cheap food source for slaves and the poor. it's estimated there was 3-5 billion of them in North America when the Europeans arrived.. but the last Passenger Pigeon - named Martha - died in a zoo in 1914 
so there you have it.. a bird that used to number in the billions. within 100 years these stupid greedy fucking people killed off every last one. and that's just one of many species that were needlessly eradicated. we're literally scouring the ocean floor and wiping out entire marine ecosystems just to catch tuna. what cant be sold in fish markets gets ground up and fed to livestock. so we are indeed using up the earth. I attended a lecture by David Suzuki in Toronto in 2005. He gave an *extremely* dire prognosis for our future. He said there was only a tiny window of opportunity left to reverse a spiral into destruction. He said, while it was theoretically possible to save the world, the inherent stupidity and selfishness of many humans will never allow it. David Suzuki is a pretty clever guy, so what evidence are you privy to that would suggest otherwise? |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Sat Jun 18, 2011 @ 1:37am |
| Coolness: 145215 | Originally Posted By DATABOY
So, basic human rights, healthcare, should be proportional to how much money you have? no one said that, everyone should pay the same, rich people have the same rights as poor people, no? you think they should pay more for the same product???? I actually don't believe you have a right to health care (now hold on before you get the torches and pitch forks!) I just don't think you have the RIGHT to someone elses services, you don't have the right to medical care at least not on par with the right to free association and free speech...i think the left has gone terribly wrong in terms of rights...you have the right to your life and your liberty and the right to lead your life as you see fit. The gov doesn't owe you anything and it's not the Gov's responsibiliy to make your life better or to give your life meaning or to make you a better person. Limitted gov, that's the idea, but not no government, goverment does have a role, the states has a role, and it's role (perhaps amongst others) is to defend my freedom so I can live my life and enjoy it and become a better person as I see fit. Basdini, Is there anything more important to you than personal wealth? ya personal freedom! If I follow your train of thought, Should all laws not be voluntary? How About we go back to the laws of the jungle...that's what the right has been dreaming about hasn't it? or is it only as far as the markets are concerned? No, because gov does have a role, I'm not an anarcho capitalist. Might is right... right? for the left, maybe. Using a gun or using government to extract wealth from people is wrong even if you give that wealth to other people to help them out...Stealing is Stealing, if the person earned the wealth legally then if you expropriated it you're just a thief, leftists are real generous especially with other peoples money. Your paradigms belong to an other era, one where trees covered the land, where there where plenty of fish in the sea and humans didn't posses the means of killing all life on earth. Being reckless bears far greater consequences today than in the days of Adam Smith. No i think your paradigm is from another era, again look at some of the worst environmental behavior it happened in the soviet union and eastern europe...Also China has only recently tak |
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Basdini'S Secret
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