Turks Protest Over Headscarf Plan
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Mico replied on Sat Feb 2, 2008 @ 10:29pm |
 Coolness: 150560 | Thousands of Turks have rallied in Ankara to protest against a government plan to allow women to wear the Islamic headscarf in Turkish universities.
The protestors fear such a move would usher in a stricter form of Islam in Turkey, which is a secular state. Turkey's parliament is expected to approve a constitutional amendment to ease the ban next week. The ban on the headscarf in higher education was imposed in the 1980s, and has been enforced for the past decade. A huge crowd gathered at the mausoleum of Ataturk - the man who founded Turkey as a modern, secular republic. Fearing the gains of his revolution are in danger, the protestors came waving Ataturk's image on banners and carrying the national flag. --Political symbol-- The government - which is led by devout Muslims - is pushing a reform that would allow women to wear the religious headscarf to university. The scarf has been banned outright in private and state universities for almost two decades. The government argues the ban deprives thousands of women of a higher education. But Turkey's powerful, secular establishment sees the headscarf as a symbol of political Islam - a threat to their secular way of life, and to the political system here. Those opposed to the reform include the military, Turkey's judges and university rectors. They fear it is just the first step to allowing religious symbols into all aspects of public life. The constitutional amendment is likely to be passed by parliament, where the government has the support of the main nationalist party. But such is the controversy that the changes are almost certain to be contested in the constitutional court. [ news.bbc.co.uk ] |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Sun Feb 3, 2008 @ 4:48pm |
 Coolness: 201325 | Meanwhile in Canada commenting on Islam as a religion is considered a hate crime. |
| I'm feeling gangsta right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Mico replied on Sun Feb 3, 2008 @ 6:02pm |
| Coolness: 150560 | Well, as I'm sure you already know, this is a pretty serious issue in Turkey. There has been great suspicion from the secularists in the country about the new Islamic government, and in which direction they will lead the country.
Personally, I think it's an interesting situation. Deny Islamic symbols in Schools, etc. to ensure the state remains secular, or to allow the freedom to express your religious cultures, and traditions openly in society? It's clearly unfair to NOT allow those women who wear headscarves into Universities. It would be the equivalent of all those other countries who simply don't allow women to study, or to vote. Where's the freedom and democracy in that? What I'm wondering is, considering that this ban has been in place for nearly 20-years, how have women, who choose to wear head scarves (or whatever), have coped, or gained an eduction in Turkey? |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Sun Feb 3, 2008 @ 6:07pm |
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| I'm feeling fuckin' crazy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Mico replied on Sun Feb 3, 2008 @ 10:49pm |
| Coolness: 150560 | ... But Jesus is the ONLY person who really knows how to listen. Know what I mean? |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Mon Feb 4, 2008 @ 1:07am |
 Coolness: 145300 | Originally Posted By SCOTTYP MEANWHILE IN CANADA COMMENTING ON ISLAM AS A RELIGION IS CONSIDERED A HATE CRIME.
??? |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Trey replied on Mon Feb 4, 2008 @ 7:30pm |
 Coolness: 102865 | Originally Posted By MICO
.... There has been great suspicion from the secularists in the country about the new Islamic government, and in which direction they will lead the country....Deny Islamic symbols in Schools, etc. to ensure the state remains secular, or to allow the freedom to express your religious cultures, and traditions openly in society? It's clearly unfair to NOT allow those women who wear headscarves into Universities. It would be the equivalent of all those other countries who simply don't allow women to study, or to vote. Where's the freedom and democracy in that? What I'm wondering is, considering that this ban has been in place for nearly 20-years, how have women, who choose to wear head scarves (or whatever), have coped, or gained an eduction in Turkey? How smart or strong are these women if they follow a religion that debased the female gender, that follow the Qur'an and the Hadith which are sexist? Probably very smart, they just have a weak will. Despite the secular military Generals and Army attempted e-mail coup on not to vote for AK, the AK won the elections fairly. AK, Justice and Development Party, is a moderate Islamic Party. We shouldn't worry about anything, after all there are still beaches with women thong bikinis in Turkey. Think of this way... if the party in power, after election, plans to reform about headscarf in Universities over issue of the PKK (Kurd terrorist /separatist group) and the cultural Turkish amnesia of the genocide of Armenians. Ask yourself, are they not pushing a religious agenda? Turkey so badly wants in the European Union, so it is unlikely they would adopt Sharia laws. Update » Trey wrote on Mon Feb 4, 2008 @ 8:26pm In addition, it's also about geopolitiks. The headscarf issue is to appeased the Kurds who are Islamic also. They need the Kurds votes in local elections. Also, the AK is using Islam to united Turkish and Kurds, to fight against Kurdish Separatists. They are more Kurds in East Turkey than in northern Irak and Syria. Anything that promotes a nation of Kurdistan is put down, but the government also arrested those accused of unlawful killing of PKK.
The AK is trying to balance between ultra nationalist secular Turkish and ultra nationalist Islamic Kurds. Of all the religious government in power across all the nation, the AK is doing a good job... so far. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Anarkoid replied on Tue Feb 5, 2008 @ 12:35am |
 Coolness: 192775 | Originally Posted By TREY
How smart or strong are these women if they follow a religion that debased the female gender, that follow the Qur'an and the Hadith which are sexist? Probably very smart, they just have a weak will. Saying they have a weak will might be a little extreme since, resisting to pressure from all your family and community is very hard...keeping the headscarf out of the government and school make it impossible for these families to impose such a thing on women and with time might reduce the influence of religion and its damages on society. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Tue Feb 5, 2008 @ 2:50am |
| Coolness: 145300 | "How smart or strong are these women if they follow a religion that debased the female gender, that follow the Qur'an and the Hadith which are sexist? Probably very smart, they just have a weak will."
most of the women who practice islam in the tradional fashion don't feel they are oppressed or that islam is sexist... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Trey replied on Tue Feb 5, 2008 @ 7:42am |
| Coolness: 102865 | because they are brainwashed? because they are born into that culture?
Read the the Qur'an and the Hadith and tell me those book are not sexist. Update » Trey wrote on Tue Feb 5, 2008 @ 8:15am The point is that do you really thing the Muslims care about Muslim women going to University or not? It's about the 14 millions Kurdish vote (and keeping those Kurds from supporting the PKK ). |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Tue Feb 5, 2008 @ 12:18pm |
| Coolness: 201325 | most of the women who practice islam in the tradional fashion don't feel they are oppressed or that islam is sexist...
And if they said otherwise they would probably get intimidated |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Tue Feb 5, 2008 @ 12:19pm |
| Coolness: 685690 | Is intimidated the new code word for "beaten to death for speaking against islam"? |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Anarkoid replied on Tue Feb 5, 2008 @ 4:10pm |
| Coolness: 192775 | Originally Posted By SCREWHEAD
Is intimidated the new code word for "beaten to death for speaking against islam"? yes it is!!! |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Mico replied on Tue Feb 5, 2008 @ 8:28pm |
| Coolness: 150560 | Oh, come on! We live in a relatively secular environment and we see women wearing headscarves all the time. Do you you think they would get stoned to death in Montreal, or Toronto because they decided to stop wearing the head scarves? Yes, every country's religious attitude is relative, but you still have to consider that some of these people have willingly chosen to practice their religion (regardless of how sexist it may be, or is) and by doing so wear their headscarves proudly. Update » Mico wrote on Tue Feb 5, 2008 @ 8:35pm And on the same note, we often see women of Islamic faith who have chosen not to wear headscarves. I suppose the question is: Do these women who do wear headscraves do so by force, or by choice?
You may be right Trey in saying that this is an attempt to attract a Kurdish vote --even though this Islmaic party has already won the election. What I would like to know is how this ban has affected Islamic women who chosen to wear headscarves in gaining an education... Since is, apparently, the reason for this legislation. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» flo replied on Wed Feb 6, 2008 @ 8:08am |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Wed Feb 6, 2008 @ 9:15am |
| Coolness: 145300 | Originally Posted By TREY BECAUSE THEY ARE BRAINWASHED? BECAUSE THEY ARE BORN INTO THAT CULTURE? READ THE THE QUR'AN AND THE HADITH AND TELL ME THOSE BOOK ARE NOT SEXIST.
when you say they are brainwashed do you not see how arrogant this sounds, you're implicitly saying that you know better what is good for these people then they do themselves. If someone from another part of the world said that you were brainwashed to be materialistic because you were from the west, you would obviously say they didn't know what they were talking about. principle of charity:...? [ en.wikipedia.org ] it's interesting to note that there isn't anything (not one word) in the koran about women wearing headscarfs. If you disagree please post a passage from the koran that says otherwise... |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» cvxn replied on Wed Feb 6, 2008 @ 10:11am |
 Coolness: 178745 | all main monotheistic religions (judaism, islam, christianism) are quite sexist.
they all come from middle east, from about the same period in time, and are very related to each other. If the way of life of middle east people 2000 years ago was patriachal, so be it. It just sucks that these religions still keep those patriarchal values in 2008, when times have changed. Of course, lots of people (here for example) follow these religions without agreeing with the sexist stuffs. You choose what to believe ;) But I don't think religion and politics belong together. Too much risk of power abuse. Religion should be a personal choice, something private. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Trey replied on Mon Feb 11, 2008 @ 4:43am |
| Coolness: 102865 | posted by basdini
when you say they are brainwashed do you not see how arrogant this sounds, you're implicitly saying that you know better what is good for these people then they do themselves. If someone from another part of the world said that you were brainwashed to be materialistic because you were from the west, you would obviously say they didn't know what they were talking about. principle of charity:...? Me arrogance? it's a possibility, I've admitted before that I am belligerent. I may be a thug but at least i know my shit. If i can afford to be insulting and unfriendly it is because I've study/read up on what i am writing about. I don't work on rhetoric because this is a RAVE message board after all. **First, you link a WIKI article that needs "citations for verification." Is that the sum of your knowledge? Wiki articles? Did you not see the question mark ( my quote: "because they are brainwashed? because they are born into that culture?" ) at the end of my sentence? |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Mon Feb 11, 2008 @ 7:03pm |
| Coolness: 201325 | Not all families force their daughters to subscribe to the idea that they must cover themselves in the name of dressing 'modestly'. But some do. I have had some long discussions with muslims about the issue and there are some women who, even in their late 20's, feel guilt/intimidation toward adopting western ways in western countries due to the pressure of their families and communities. Many of them are afraid to speak out.
Look up people such as the canadian Irshad Manji. She needs bodyguards and bullet-proof windows on her home due to her feminist stance and her opposition to fundamentalist Islam. Clearly there is a problem. |
| I'm feeling gangsta right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Wed Feb 13, 2008 @ 12:49am |
| Coolness: 145300 | it would appear that i have to admit that i'm wrong which is something i (unlike most people on this board) am man enough to do...
I had always believed the quran (i don't want to comment on the hadith cause i don't know it as well) didn't say anything about the hijab... I have never said that i know the quran cover to cover by heart, I believed this because in Irshad Manji's book 'The Trouble With Islam' which i read about two years ago, she says that there is no mention of the hijab (she says rather it's a cultural clevage of middle eastern society and nothing inherent in islam) Up until you posted that i had never seen a passage in the quran that supported the wearing of the hijab, upon further research on my part there is not only that passage that you posted but perhaps others as well. you say that i don't make arguments to support myself, this is not true, i do make arguments i however very careful about what i ascribe to, usually only statements that i can back up with an argument that i know is pretty solid. This time, i wasn't as careful as i should have been and have paid the price for it,i am now eating 'humble pie' as they say. |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
Turks Protest Over Headscarf Plan
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