We Need Less Schooling Not More
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» beercrack replied on Sat Aug 5, 2006 @ 9:47pm |
 Coolness: 71560 | [ rave.ca ] |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 12:11am |
 Coolness: 685715 | No, what we need is PROPER schooling, with teachers that care. None of this bullshit "No child left behind" crap that's now leaked it's way over our borders from The Almighty You Ess Of Ay. We're teaching kids that "It's alright to make mistakes, no one is perfect", and with that kind of mentality, well, look at this messageboard for a great example. How many people know how to spell properly, or even formulate a semi-coherent sentence? Political correctness is making a generation of pussies who strive to do the least effort possible to get by. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 12:15am |
 Coolness: 145325 | fred i don't think spelling is that important, we have dictionaries for a reason...I think it's more important that we find way to encourage people to think critically... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 12:20am |
| Coolness: 685715 | Spelling is just as important as any part of education. Dictionaries are there to check for meanings of words, and if you can't spell the word properly, how are you going to look it up? By not learning to do something PROPERLY, you are just being lazy. Thinking critically is important, but how seriously do you think people are going to take you if your ideas and ideals are all spelt like teh peeps spell on teh interweb |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 12:38am |
 Coolness: 339790 | Education raises the standard of living. Want less education, move to a poor African country, they've got plenty of lack of education. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 12:54am |
| Coolness: 685715 | and aids! |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» beercrack replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 1:54am |
| Coolness: 71560 | the man who wrote this article is a new york teacher who won teacher of the year award and if you read the article
instead of just being lazy and reacting to the title (don't judge a book by the cover) for immediate value you can find an indepth article promoting healthy realization of the individual within the comfort of the family unit with strong nurturing values and an alternative to alienation promoted by the networks of school and work - whereby the family unit and related individuals consists of community, and work and schooling consists of social networks outside of community - network alienating mass units of individuals from their respective communities separating yourself from this concept may mean recalibrating your whole being thus being a difficult process it does not denigrate education but rather criticize the sociodynamics of institutions and their relation to the individual's progress in a holistic nurturing environment (imho) something to that effect. ~=education is priceless. community even more so |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 3:37am |
| Coolness: 145325 | i've never been able to spell anything but that doesn't stop me from being really well educated, we have spell check and dictionaries so that when we do do something important like write you're thesis you can check it and make sure there is no typos, in terms of writting clarity is much more important than not having spelling mistakes...
ps you can't write IDEALS down, by definition they defy the written word... anyway, just my thoughts on the whole thing... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 10:01am |
| Coolness: 339790 | Originally Posted By MADESKIMO
the man who wrote this article is a new york teacher who won teacher of the year award and if you read the article instead of just being lazy and reacting to the title (don't judge a book by the cover) for immediate value you can find an indepth article promoting healthy realization of the individual within the comfort of the family unit with strong nurturing values and an alternative to alienation promoted by the networks of school and work - whereby the family unit and related individuals consists of community, and work and schooling consists of social networks outside of community - network alienating mass units of individuals from their respective communities separating yourself from this concept may mean recalibrating your whole being thus being a difficult process it does not denigrate education but rather criticize the sociodynamics of institutions and their relation to the individual's progress in a holistic nurturing environment (imho) something to that effect. ~=education is priceless. community even more so the title should summarize the article, if it doesn't, then it's either false or sensationalist.. Ian, a spellcheck wont tell you that it's improper to use the word "really" in this context: "stop me from being really well educated". |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 10:26am |
| Coolness: 685715 | Not learning how to spell properly or how to use propper grammar has no excuse. Would DaVinci have been able to paint the Mona Lisa the same if he didn't know how to use a brush or how his colors interact with each other? What's the purpose of pens and pencils, since we have computers now to do the writing for us? Why learn basic math if the calculator can tell me the answer to 3*4? Why learn to sing on key, when we can record our voice and fix it with Autotune or Melodyne? Why learn to beatmatch records, when we have Traktor and Ableton? Why learn to paint or draw, when we have Photoshop and Illustrator? Why should we write our own poems, when we can use rhyme dictionaries on the internet?
In order to do anything that requires some form of expression, you have to know how to use the tools required to properly and clearly express yourself, and grammar and spelling are the tools to express yourself using language. You can learn to use them properly and get your thoughts and ideas out as clearly as possible in as little time as possible, or you can be lazy and unclear because there's something else to do the work for you. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 10:27am |
| Coolness: 339790 | Art is 90% technical skill, 10% creativity.
The reason most artists suck balls, is because they think it's 10% technical skill, 90% creativity. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» beercrack replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 11:12am |
| Coolness: 71560 | screwhead: words and grammar and phrases and paragraphs are simply containers to the ideas - not the end but a means
as we say in french "l'important c'est qu'on se comprenne" i write without much punctuation and capitalization (on the message board , true...) like i can appreciate e.e. cummings it is important to communicate effectively your message thus it is important to make the delivery intelligible and yes fundamental rules and basics to written language facilitate this handing in a basic 20 page essay in university requires perfection of the delivery according to set rules and it is a good habit to cultivate expressing one's written communcation in this form alas i am a university dropout and a self-taught esoteric new-age space-age freak from the infinite north via the metropolis and i allow myself that freedom from convention because i am eccentric! ha :P Nonetheless with a slight effort i can add punctuation, and proper capitalization and structure to sentences and phrases. jokes aside the title did not say "we need less EDUCATION not more" rather "we need less SCHOOLING not more" i don't want to open a can of worms here but this is in a context of socioeconomics and the power structure and peoples' related freedoms and in this context biological warfare, dishonest journalism, warping of historical facts, and mass alienation and exploitation, and other sensationalist brouhaha are fair game in order to perpetuate the system itself that nonetheless has its advantages but ultimately leaves many feeling lost and acting out their confusion. that is the way the ball bounces. what this article calls for if you read it is not a dumbing down of people's intellectual scientificity but rather a smartening up of their emotional intelligence ~ymmv Update » beercrack wrote on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 11:20am also, mind you that the article is written in the context of the USA. Canada may have a differenat way, but nonethelss we are very close to our neuighbour and its agenda...
from NINE ASSUMPTIONS OF SCHOOLING - and Twenty-one Facts the Institution Would Rather Not Discuss by John Taylor Gatto Nine Assumptions of Schooling 1. Social cohesion is not possible through other means than government schooling; school is the main defense against social chaos. 2. Children cannot learn to tolerate each other unless first socialized by government agents. 3. The only safe mentors of children are certified experts with government-approved conditioning; children must be protected from the uncertified, including parents. 4. Compelling children to violate family, cultural and religious norms does not interfere with the development of their intellects or characters. 5. In order to dilute parental influence, children must be disabused of the notion that mother and father are sovereign in morality or intelligence. 6. Families should be encouraged to expend concern on the general education of everyone but discouraged from being unduly concerned with their own children's education. 7. The State has predominant responsibility for training, morals and beliefs. Children who escape state scrutiny will become immoral. 8. Children from families with different beliefs, backgrounds and styles must be forced together even if those beliefs violently contradict one another. Robert Frost, the poet, was wrong when he maintained that "good fences make good neighbors." 9. Coercion in the name of liberty is a valid use of state power. Update » beercrack wrote on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 11:45am note that i am not trying to prove or disprove anything
simply seeting out put light on the frameworks within which we may operate~ |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Sun Aug 6, 2006 @ 3:39pm |
 Coolness: 201350 | I think education needs to encourage personal creativity instead of "respecting authority". |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Mon Aug 7, 2006 @ 12:48am |
| Coolness: 145325 | .. Ian, a spellcheck wont tell you that it's improper to use the word "really" in this context: "stop me from being really well educated".
i think it is permissible to speak/write in informal ways in informal situations and contexts do you...i think what you are implying is that you are better educated than i am...perhaps you should just come out and say that rather than hidding behind shallow cheap shots at my word choice, Neither you nor fred have ever been to university (as far as i know perhaps i'm wrong), how could you possibly know anything about education or be 'really' (in the sense of 'truly' or 'genuinely') well educated...my argument about spelling is pretty simple perhaps even you can follow it... Spelling is important in the sense that you have to get it right somehow when necessary, spelling involves memorization, if one is not gifted in terms of memorizing how to spell words does that make someone stupid...i don't think so at all. That would be like saying that if you have bad hand writting you are also stupid, which is absurd... My mother also can't spell very well, but she has a PhD in Neurobiology and Gentics, she is the director of the pharmaceutical research division for Johnson and Johnson, Europe, will you two beacons of sophistication honestly maintain that you are more intelligent than she is just because you can maybe remember how to spell a few words that she can't? i don't beleve that claim holds tru at all. Not being able to spell clearly does not stop me from having a larger and more comprehensive vocabulary than both of you combined. The only place where you guys are seen as being at all intelligent is the internet, ( because you can point and laugh at people when they make a spelling mistake and try to ridicule them when they put you in a corner, that's called rhetoric boys if you are not sure what it means look or better yet read some of Jaques Derrida's books for a deeper look at what it is you pathetic little know it all relativists are doing) it is my frank opinion that neither one of you would last very long under the scrutiny and rigour of a real academic or journalistic environment, and you probobly will never try to put yourself in that type of a position because i think deep down you know this is true... Your biggest problem is the attitude you guys have, which is "if i don't already know it it must not be really worth knowing". You may be able to hide these things to other people on the net, but i see through the shallowness of your opinions, by all means please don't ever admit that you are wrong or you don't know what you are talking about because we could not have that now could we, Just so that we are clear i see Scotty P and Sophia as being more authentic inttellectuals than you two...you don't have to bother answering this because i really don't care what you guys think, though if you would like to respond i am sure that i would certainly find it enteraining. |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Mon Aug 7, 2006 @ 8:19am |
| Coolness: 339790 | If you didn't care what i would reply, you shouldn't have replied.
I chose not to go to university because i am a computer programmer. University level computer science is a joke. A bunch of backward hacks that know how to code in fortran and punch cards are teaching math rather than programming techniques and languages. I have seen it happen far too many times where someone goes to university in comp-sci, get's their decgree, gets a job, then is fired 2 weeks later when they realize that they have little to no skill. I've confirmed this fact with several employers. I spend ALL my time learning independently. I spend about 14 hours a day behind a computer doing work or reading. Learning how to read and write isn't a matter of memorization, it's a matter of experience, the more you see proper use of spelling, the more you yourself will use it. Saying proper spelling isn't needed is a rediculous concept, as you start making up your own rules for a language, the less it has in common with what everyone else is using, sooner or later you will no longer be speakin/writing in English and instead you will have a different language that only you speak. I guess if your goal is to speak Neil-ish, then that's cool, but the entire concept of language is that other can understand you. The more you use loosely writen language, the more ambiguous your statements become, and more open to interpretation. So the real question is, where's the threadshold? Do you care to slip into something like ebonics? Update » neoform wrote on Mon Aug 7, 2006 @ 8:26am I used Ebonics as an example, since it's supposedly a language, yet there are no discernable rules; you can effectively make up a word on the spot and it passes. Fo-shizzle my neezy biatch! |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» moondancer replied on Mon Aug 7, 2006 @ 8:56am |
 Coolness: 92390 | I was always really good at spelling/vocabulary, won every spellign bee, blablabla and I can confidently say(as someone who has nothign to lose) that most people just don't retain stuff like that very well even if they try. Some people look at a word and never forget how it's composed, even if they never even give a second thought to it and others can't remember for their life because their visual memory sucks. I think a good speller and a bad speller has a lot more to do with the type of memory that you possess. Each person retains things in their own way, I really think there's different types of intellignece. Some people you have to speak your response, for others you have to write it, I remember better what I read on paper which is what makes spelling easy for me but others can't remember that for shit. Some people are really bad at straight equations but amazing at word problems and than you find others who are the strikign opposite. You find people who are good at finding equations but can't solve them and vice versa. Than there's people form other countries who can solve a 10 part equation in less than 20 seconds simply because they've been taught more efficiently, they been taught to do it different, to think of it different. Watch how some chink off the boat writes his equations and you will not say our education system doesn't need reform. We spend so much time in school and we learn so much less. We do not learn to think critically at all and I see the effect on people around me all the time, it's irritating. Poeple just beleive the first thing they hear, the way they've been taught to, they never think twice, it's scary. The world is not so factual. People can hardly even bring what they learn back into the real world. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Trey replied on Mon Aug 7, 2006 @ 6:06pm |
 Coolness: 102890 | Moondancer needs to use paragraphs in her long posts more often.  |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Tue Aug 8, 2006 @ 12:32am |
| Coolness: 145325 | Originally Posted By DJNEOFORM LEARNING HOW TO READ AND WRITE ISN'T A MATTER OF MEMORIZATION, IT'S A MATTER OF EXPERIENCE, THE MORE YOU SEE PROPER USE OF SPELLING, THE MORE YOU YOURSELF WILL USE IT. SAYING PROPER SPELLING ISN'T NEEDED IS A REDICULOUS CONCEPT, AS YOU START MAKING UP YOUR OWN RULES FOR A LANGUAGE, THE LESS IT HAS IN COMMON WITH WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS USING, SOONER OR LATER YOU WILL NO LONGER BE SPEAKIN/WRITING IN ENGLISH AND INSTEAD YOU WILL HAVE A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE THAT ONLY YOU SPEAK. I GUESS IF YOUR GOAL IS TO SPEAK NEIL-ISH, THEN THAT'S COOL, BUT THE ENTIRE CONCEPT OF LANGUAGE IS THAT OTHER CAN UNDERSTAND YOU. THE MORE YOU USE LOOSELY WRITEN LANGUAGE, THE MORE AMBIGUOUS YOUR STATEMENTS BECOME, AND MORE OPEN TO INTERPRETATION. SO THE REAL QUESTION IS, WHERE'S THE THREADSHOLD? DO YOU CARE TO SLIP INTO SOMETHING LIKE EBONICS?
i'm not saying spelling mistakes aren't important, i'm saying that they can and are corrected when necessary, it doesn't matter how many time you read something you might always spell incorectly...atleast that's the case for me. Being good at spelling or not is NO INDICATION OF INTELLIGENCE. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Tue Aug 8, 2006 @ 9:40am |
| Coolness: 339790 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
i'm not saying spelling mistakes aren't important, i'm saying that they can and are corrected when necessary, it doesn't matter how many time you read something you might always spell incorectly...atleast that's the case for me. Being good at spelling or not is NO INDICATION OF INTELLIGENCE. I never said spelling requires intelligence.. I was however pointing out that there is a strong need for proper spelling. Originally Posted By BASDINI
fred i don't think spelling is that important, we have dictionaries for a reason...I think it's more important that we find way to encourage people to think critically... What's the use of having a bunch of critical thinkers if they end up not having the ability to communicate their ideas? Believe it or not, communication is what is slowly breaking down barriers that seperate us. What do you think would happen if someone invented a universal translator that would allow someone to translate english to chinese without flaw? The world would become that much more integrated. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Tue Aug 8, 2006 @ 11:04am |
| Coolness: 201350 | Spelling is important if you are writing articles, It's not a big deal on a message board. |
We Need Less Schooling Not More
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