Source: PBS NewsHour

Contact: newshour@pbs.org

A HELPFUL ALLY?
NEWSHOUR TRANSCRIPT

General Barry McCaffrey, the drug policy head for the federal government,
has just returned from touring the U.S./Mexico border. He discusses the
efforts of the American and Mexican governments to combat drug production
and delivery with Eduardo Ibarolla, MexicoÆs deputy attorney general, and
Charles Krause.

CHARLES KRAUSE: The U.S.Mexico border stretches for 2,000 miles from Texas
to California, providing an entry point for an estimated 50 to 70 percent
of all the illegal drugs imported into the United States. ItÆs an enormous
business worth $25 to $35 billion a year, about twice as much as the U.S.
and Mexican governments together spend on trying to stop it.

Tijuana, on the California border, and Juarez, across from El Paso, are
MexicoÆs two principal drug trafficking centerspoor and teeming cities
where drug money and drugrelated violence have largely undermined law
enforcement efforts aimed at curbing the drug dealers. Twelve Mexican
police or drug enforcement officials were gunned down last year in Tijuana
alone, and most of the cityÆs more than 200 other murders were also
believed to have been drug related.

This year, the violence has spread to Juarez, where a series of
executionstyle murders has shaken a city thatÆs no stranger to
drugrelated violence. The latest casualties appear to be victims of a
power struggle to replace Amado Carrillo Feuntes, one of MexicoÆs richest
and most powerful drug traffickers, who died last July, after plastic
surgeons spent over eight hours in Mexico City trying to change his
appearance.

A crisis in confidence.

The United States has long demanded that Mexico do more to stop the drug
trade and drug traffickers, providing millions of dollarsÆ worth of
training and equipment, along with rosy assessments that the situation was
improving. But last February, MexicoÆs drug czar, Gen. Jesus Gutierrez
Rebollo, was arrested on unprecedented charges of taking money from drug
traffickers. That news was then followed by reports that other high level
government officials, including the brother of MexicoÆs former president,
Carlos Salinas, were also involved in drug trafficking and corruption.

The revelations nearly forced President Clinton to decertify Mexico in this
yearÆs report to Congress on international drug cooperation. The President
resisted but the damage to MexicoÆs image had been done, forcing the
Mexican government to publicly acknowledge for the first time that drug
money had corrupted much of the countryÆs drug enforcement apparatus and
many judges and politicians as well. In an interview with the NewsHour last
May, Mexican President Ernesto Zedillo said his decision to create a
completely new federal police force to combat drugs was evidence of his
determination to fight MexicoÆs drug problem.

PRESIDENT ERNESTO ZEDILLO, Mexico: (May 5) I believeand I want to be very
clear about itthat wherever you have drug trafficking, there is
corruption. There is perhaps one difference: We are fully recognizing that,
and we are facing that challenge.

CHARLES KRAUSE: Gen. Barry McCaffrey, the Clinton administrationÆs drug
czar, got a firsthand look at that challenge last week as he toured the
U.S.Mexico border. Security was especially tight after the FBI received
what it called a credible threat that McCaffrey would be assassinated by a
missile during his trip from El Paso and Juarez to San Diego and Tijuana.
He was accompanied by high level Mexican government officials, including
MexicoÆs attorney general.

CHARLES KRAUSE: Joining us now to report on his trip and the state of
U.S.Mexico drug cooperation is Gen. Barry McCaffrey, whose formal title is
director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, and Eduardo
Ibarolla, MexicoÆs deputy attorney general, who also took part in last
weekÆs trip along the border. Mr. Ibarolla joins us from Mexico City.
Gentlemen, welcome.

GEN. BARRY McCAFFREY (Ret.), Director, National Drug Control Policy: ItÆs
good to be here.

"Enormous amounts of violence and corruption on both sides of the border..."

CHARLES KRAUSE: General, tell me what did you find down there? Is the
situation as difficult as it looks?

GEN. BARRY McCAFFREY: Well, I think itÆs generated enormous amounts of
violence and corruption on both sides of the border, more than 200 Mexican
police officers murdered, more than 400 violent incidents against our own
law enforcement authorities. So weÆve got an opportunity here. The Gulf
Cartel and the ACF gang have both been disrupted by her intensive
intervention. WeÆre going to have pile on and confront this issue in the
weeks to come.

CHARLES KRAUSE: Now, I understand youÆre planning to recommend some
changes, both in terms of force structures and more equipment down there.
Tell me, what do you have in mind?

GEN. BARRY McCAFFREY: Well, I think the attorney general, Janet Reno, and
Secretary of the Treasury Bob Rubin really had the primary responsibility,
but itÆs clear to most of us that at these 38 ports of entry we got 82
million cars, 3 + million trucks pouring back and forth across the most
open border on the face of the earth. WeÆve got to have technology to deter
drug smuggling. And I think the second thing that is obvious to most of us
is

CHARLES KRAUSE: What kind of technology?

GEN. BARRY McCAFFREY: Well, this last yearÆs budget, bipartisan support of
the Congress, put eight giant Xray machines that were designed for Soviet
ICBMÆs on to the border, so that in the coming year youÆre going to see
these movable assets and the custom service, Sam Banks and Bob Rubin, our
Secretary of the Treasury, are going to finally have a handle on some of
this smuggling problem.

CHARLES KRAUSE: But weÆll still need the Mexicans to cooperate.

GEN. BARRY McCAFFREY: Sure. You canÆt do this unless both sides of the
border, unless Mexican law enforcement and judicial authorities and
intelligence systems meshed with ours. And thatÆs our challenge, how to
build a partnership in the years to come.

The View from Mexico.

CHARLES KRAUSE: Mr. Ibarolla, in Mexico City, tell me, from your side of
the border, how does this situation look? Is it better or worse?

EDUARDO IBAROLLA, Deputy Attorney General, Mexico: Well, as Gen. McCaffrey
just stated before, for Mexico to fight on drugs is a priority. President
Zedillo in his last State of the Nation a few days ago clearly said that
this is a priority for Mexico, we are working very hard on that, and we, of
course, have a very good program of cooperation not only with the United
States but also with other nations of the world, and mainly with the Latin
American countries.

CHARLES KRAUSE: Is there anything you can point to, though, specifically
that demonstrates that thereÆs been some real progress; that the flow of
drugs from your country is being

EDUARDO IBAROLLA: Well, certainly, this year is going to be a record year
in cocaine seized and also in marijuana. We have seized until now a little
more than 30 tons of cocaine that were captured in Mexican territory, and
also the attorney general isMr. Madrasois changing the whole
institution that was devoted to fight drug traffickers. The new
prosecutorÆs office has been changed from everything. We have new
personnel. We have people that have beenthat have passed several
examinations, among others a polygraph, and we are trying to hire better
people, honest people that are really devoted to this fight.

CHARLES KRAUSE: General, whatÆs your assessment of how the Mexicans are
doing?

GEN. BARRY McCAFFREY: Well, tremendous effort. The U.S. Department of
Defense and Mexican armed forces are cooperating. WeÆre trying to give them
73 helicopters to increase their mobility so that the army and the police,
who have destroyed more drugs than any other nation on the face of the
earth can continue the effort. I think weÆre also seeing unprecedented
cooperation between the two attorney generals, Madraso and Janet Reno.
Extradition so that criminals canÆt flee justice in each country is part of
our developing partnership.

CHARLES KRAUSE: On the other hand, you were personally embarrassed when
Gen. Gutierrez was arrested earlier this year. What is the level of
corruption like? Is it any better than it was?

GEN. BARRY McCAFFREY: Well, clearly, this was a tremendous blow to the
Mexican government, all those who believe that partnership is part of our
effort. And Gutierrez Rebollo, of course, was arrested by Mexican
authorities 62 days after he was put in office. They were unaware. He was a
mole for one drug gang, operating against other drug gangs. I think weÆre
going to see more cases of corruption on both sides of the border. Now,
weÆve had some 600 cases of official corruption related to drugs in our
country, and weÆve prosecuted mayors and sheriffs and police chiefs. The
question isnÆt whether corruption exists but what are we going to do about
it, and I think both sides are determined to try and root this out.

CHARLES KRAUSE: But if you donÆt mind, my question was: What are they doing
about it? Because youÆve got to report back to Congress, and what are you
going to tell them?

GEN. BARRY McCAFFREY: Well, weÆre going to send a report over there another
10 days. IÆm going to make sure youÆve got a copy of it right after we give
it to Senators Coverdell and Feinstein. But essentially what weÆre going to
do is try and catalogue specifically ten areas of MexicanU.S.
cooperationtalk about numbers, talk about what theyÆre really doing. One
area will be, obviously, intelligence sharing, evidence sharing,
extradition, Mexican attempts to rebuild their law enforcement
institutions, military to military cooperation, across the board, what are
they actually doing?

How pervasive is corruption?

CHARLES KRAUSE: Corruption?

GEN. BARRY McCAFFREY: Well, in corruption, of course, theyÆve got Gutierrez
Rebollo on trial now, both military trial and civil trial, they tried to
wrap up some 30 people they think were involved in his gang, and then the
Mexican law enforcement authorities, thank God, did put tremendous pressure
on Amado Carrillo Feuntes. He tried to flee the country and now is dead,
fortunately. His gang is now murdering one another and Mexican law
enforcement authorities, and unfortunately, innocent people also.

CHARLES KRAUSE: Mr. Ibarolla.

EDUARDO IBAROLLA: Yes?

CHARLES KRAUSE: In terms of corruption, do you think that the arrest of
Gen. Gutierrez has served as a warning to other officials in the government
and the police that maybe corruption is a bit more dangerous than it used
to be?

EDUARDO IBAROLLA: Well, as Gen. McCaffrey said before, corruption is
anthat exists not only in Mexico and the United States but everywhere in
the world. But the most important thing is that we have a system that
prosecute corruption cases and that we are putting in jail those that have
been problems of corruption. ThatÆs the most important aspect of this
problem. We are working on that. We have not only Gen. Rebollo in jail but
other officials that unfortunately have the failing in this terrible mess
of corruptionand also officials of the government, and even some of the
judicial system. So we are working on that. There is no impunity in Mexico,
and thatÆs the important thing.

CHARLES KRAUSE: What about the generalÆs point about the violence, the drug
war between different drug dealers? WhatÆs your sense of that? Is that
impeding the flow of drugs into the United States, for example?

EDUARDO IBAROLLA: Well, we are working on that. We are doing efforts, you
knowthe mostwe have to keep in mind that the attraction of drugs is the
demand of drugs. So we have to work also in demand reduction. Fortunately,
we have in the bilateral agenda, in the high level contact group for drug
control, one of the main topics of the agenda is precisely the main
reduction. If we donÆtif we donÆt work in the main reductionif we are
not successful in the main reduction, there is going to be enormous
difficulties to fight drug traffickers.

CHARLES KRAUSE: General, this report that you mentioned earlier,
essentially what Congress wants to know is whether or not Mexico is doing a
better job, whether some of the problems that existed, came to light
earlier this year, have been resolved. What are you going to be able to
tell them? Are things any better than they were?

GEN. BARRY McCAFFREY: Well, our own view is thereÆs enormous commitment on
the senior leadership. Both President Zedillo, as Attorney General Madraso,
the foreign minister, Guria, their minister of defense, Cervante, so we
think theyÆre determined to address a fundamental threat to MexicoÆs
democracy. And, in our view, you know, here our second biggest economic
trading partner in the world230 million people cross that border every
yearwhat option do we have but to cooperate with thesewith another
democracy?

CHARLES KRAUSE: Good evening. WeÆre going to have to leave it there for
now. Thank you, General, and thank you, Mr. Ibarolla, in Mexico City.