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Palestinians Stage Breakout In Gaza
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Wed Jan 23, 2008 @ 5:07am |
 Coolness: 145245 | RAFAH, Gaza Strip - Tens of thousands of Palestinians poured from the Gaza Strip into Egypt Wednesday after masked gunmen with explosives destroyed most of the seven-mile wall dividing the border town of Rafah.
The Gazans crossed on foot, in cars or riding donkey carts to buy supplies made scarce by an Israeli blockade of their impoverished territory. Police from the militant group Hamas, which controls Gaza, directed the traffic. Egyptian border guards took no action. Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Arye Mekel said Israel has no forces on the Gaza-Egypt border and, "therefore it is the responsibility of Egypt to ensure that the border operates properly, according to the signed agreements." "We expect the Egyptians to solve the problem," Mekel said. "Obviously we are worried about the situation. It could potentially allow anybody to enter." Israeli defense officials said they were concerned Hamas could use the opening of the border to bring weapons and ammunition into Gaza. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the defense ministry had issued no official statement. The gunmen began breaching the wall dividing Rafah before dawn, according to witnesses and Hamas officials. A total of 17 explosions destroyed the Rafah wall Wednesday, Hamas security officials said. The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter, said they were allowing Palestinians to move freely through two gaps. The identity of the gunmen who breached the border was not immediately clear. But Hamas expressed support for the move, saying that, "Blowing up the border wall with Egypt is a reflection of the ... catastrophic situation which the Palestinian people in Gaza are living through due to the blockade." Thousands of Gazans began crossing into Egypt and returning with milk, cigarettes and plastic bottles of fuel. Two-thirds of the Rafah wall had been demolished by 10 a.m. and the crowd of Palestinians crossing into Egypt swelled into the tens of thousands. The destruction continued as Palestinians used a bulldozer to tear down a section of low concrete wall topped with barbed wire to allow easier access for cars. By late morning, Palestinians across Gaza were trying to reach the border, pushing to board buses, piling into the backs of pickup trucks. However, shops on the Egyptian side had sold most of their wares. Mohammed Abu Ghazel, 29, said he had crossed the border three times. He bought cigarettes worth $53 in Egypt and sold them for five times that in Gaza, he said. "This can feed my family for a month," he said. Guards directed the crowds over the fallen metal through two main crossing areas, inspecting some bags. One man returning to Gaza carried seven pistols that were confiscated by Hamas police. Others walked unhindered over the piles of scrap metal that once made up the border wall. Gazan Ibrahim Abu Taha, 45, a father of seven, was in the Egyptian section of Rafah with his two brothers and $185 in his pocket. "We want to buy food, we want to buy rice and sugar, milk and wheat and some cheese," Abu Taha said in a telephone interview, adding that he would also buy cheap Egyptian cigarettes. Abu Taha said he could get such basic foods in Gaza, but at three times the cost. An off-duty Hamas security officer who identified himself as Abdel Rahman, 29, said this was his first time out of Gaza. "I can smell the freedom," he said. "We need no border after today." The territory had been cut off from the world since June, when Hamas seized power in Gaza by force, and Gazans are facing critical shortages of electricity, fuel and other supplies. Palestinians used explosives to break through the border on several occasions after Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in September 2005, and Gaza militants used the breaches to smuggle weapons and people through. In the past, Egyptian security forces restored order after hours or days. The latest and largest breach came on the sixth day of a complete closure of Gaza, imposed by Israel and backed by Egypt, in response to a spike in Gaza rocket attacks on Israeli border towns. Egypt has largely kept its border with Gaza closed since the Hamas takeover, amid concerns of a spillover of Hamas-style militancy into Egypt. However, Hamas has orchestrated daily demonstrations on the Gaza-Egypt border in an apparent attempt to appeal to Arab public opinion and pressure Egypt to open the passage. On Tuesday, Israel eased the closure slightly, transferring fuel to restart Gaza's only power plant, and also sent in some cooking gas, food and medicine. Israel has pledged to continue limited shipments because of concerns that a humanitarian crisis could develop in the already impoverished coastal territory. Dozens of residents gathered at the border waiting to cross after the first explosions Wednesday, witnesses reported. Hamas forces gathered on the scene and prevented people from getting through. On the other side, Egyptian forces focused spotlights on breaks in the wall and deployed troops to block any infiltration attempts from Gaza, the witnesses said. But by morning thousands of Gazans had massed at the border, and overwhelmed police began letting people cross. Most Egyptian security and police officers were later pulled out from the immediate vicinity of the border, Egyptian security officials said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue. They did not explain why the officers had been withdrawn. Governments, aid agencies and the U.N. have issued urgent appeals for an end to the Israeli closure of Gaza. Israel's Defense Ministry ruled late Tuesday that 60,000 gallons of diesel fuel will be transferred into Gaza daily, but the crossings will remain closed to other goods and people until further notice. A Hamas militant was killed in a clash early Wednesday with Israeli forces near the closed Sufa crossing into Gaza, Palestinian officials said. The Israeli military said soldiers exchanged fire with Palestinian militants in the area. [ news.yahoo.com ] |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Gamos replied on Wed Jan 23, 2008 @ 10:29pm |
 Coolness: 93540 | I understand that Israel has a right to defend themselves, but cutting of the Gaza Strip from all supplies to stop rocket attacks that destroy a few crops is hardly an appropriate or justified response.
Of course, one could wonder why Egypt just wouldn't offer to take over gaza strip security enforcement from the Israelis (water and airspace occupation). Its very sad to see people suffer so much due to the sheer incompetence of men. I know the optimal outcome is a free Palestine, but in the interim, Egypt reoccupying Gaza is better than Israel occupying Gaza. It would, at the least, alleviate the humanitarian crisis that comes with 65% unemployment and 80% poverty rates. Im sure its coming. IMO its only a matter of time before a distinct Gaza strip exists within Egpyt, much like the distinction of Quebec and Canada. Its the only economically and politcally viable way to go |
| I'm feeling swamped with work right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Wed Jan 23, 2008 @ 10:31pm |
| Coolness: 145245 | |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Anarkoid replied on Thu Jan 24, 2008 @ 12:36am |
 Coolness: 192720 | Originally Posted By GAMOS
...but cutting of the Gaza Strip from all supplies to stop rocket attacks that destroy a few crops is hardly an appropriate or justified response. that destroy a few crops...sorry to tell you that but rockets kill people...the best way to stop this would be for the Palestinian of the Gaza Strip to reject the Hamas and give their support to the Fatah which is willing to negotiate with Israel. I don't think any Israeli politician would be stupid enough to show a weak response to the provocation of the Hamas who have swear not to stop before the destruction of the state of Israel, that would be political suicide. |
| I'm feeling happy and optimistic right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Gamos replied on Thu Jan 24, 2008 @ 3:05am |
| Coolness: 93540 | Correct me if im wrong, but theres been 11 deaths since 2000 due to Hamas. And that hardly justifies Israels actions Update » Gamos wrote on Thu Jan 24, 2008 @ 3:53am In other words, killing dozens of people weekly and making 1.4 million people live on the verge of a humanitarian disaster by blockading them from even the most basic nessesities such as power, food and water because they kill 1.3 of your civilians per year is not a justified response.
If you think it is, then you are implicitly placing a weight on Israeli citizens that is at least 100 times of the weight placed on a Palestinian citizen. And no matter how you argue it, you can't justify that unless you are (a) very biased or (b) very ignorant Regarding your second point, your right. Hamas and Israel can't negotiate. So negotiations are on hold until either (a)Hamas is not relected or (b)the Middle East peace talks begin. But in the interim Palestinians should be able to live in dignity. |
| I'm feeling swamped with work right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Thu Jan 24, 2008 @ 5:26am |
| Coolness: 145245 | Originally Posted By GAMOS (A)HAMAS IS NOT RELECTED OR (B)THE MIDDLE EAST PEACE TALKS BEGIN. BUT IN THE INTERIM PALESTINIANS SHOULD BE ABLE TO LIVE IN DIGNITY.
there isn't gonna be another election in gaza... |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Anarkoid replied on Fri Jan 25, 2008 @ 1:32am |
| Coolness: 192720 | Originally Posted By GAMOS
Correct me if im wrong, but theres been 11 deaths since 2000 due to Hamas. And that hardly justifies Israels actions Update » GAMOS wrote on Thu Jan 24, 2008 @ 3:53am from 216.58.96.136 In other words, killing dozens of people weekly and making 1.4 million people live on the verge of a humanitarian disaster by blockading them from even the most basic nessesities such as power, food and water because they kill 1.3 of your civilians per year is not a justified response. If you think it is, then you are implicitly placing a weight on Israeli citizens that is at least 100 times of the weight placed on a Palestinian citizen. And no matter how you argue it, you can't justify that unless you are (a) very biased or (b) very ignorant Regarding your second point, your right. Hamas and Israel can't negotiate. So negotiations are on hold until either (a)Hamas is not relected or (b)the Middle East peace talks begin. But in the interim Palestinians should be able to live in dignity. I am trying to be objective, something you clearly are not trying real hard to be...I guess you can chose you source of information but understand that there is two side to this conflict... there was over a thousand killed by Palestinian attack since 2000 [ www.mfa.gov.il ] the attack must stop, and deciding that you want to ignore the casualties on the Israeli side is your prerogative, but don't pretend to be unbiased. Yes the palestinians deserve peace and so do the Israelis so 11 casualties you said...I guess you should say that to the families of the victims of Palestinian attacks (which I think can be also understood from their point of view). Neither Israel(and the IDF), the Fatah or the Hamas are innocent,but at least Israel and the Fatah want peace something the Hamas is not interested in... |
| I'm feeling happy and optimistic right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» moondancer replied on Fri Jan 25, 2008 @ 8:50am |
 Coolness: 92310 | Oh no not the poor impoverished Israeli families.. What is with people always talking about the poor israeli's who lost their loved ones yet don't give a shit about anyone else's.. it wouldn't be so ridiculous if you didn't look on the other side of the fence. Quite frankly.. big shit. They can move. They have that freedom unlike the Palestinians. And they can suck it up like everyone else on this planet.
The measures Israel takes in an effort to protect it's own people are specifically against and harmful attacks towards the palestinians which are sure to meet some retaliation. They make the situation worse while assuring poeple in places like Sderot that they are doing "something". Everyone keeps saying thet have to do "something". Why am I under the impression no one thinks it through? Families this families that.. it's all just fluff to make your eyes water. Not to be cold or anything *rolls eyes* but emotions and strategy don't mix. |
| I'm feeling bored right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Gamos replied on Fri Jan 25, 2008 @ 6:31pm |
| Coolness: 93540 | Anarkoid, I wasnt suggesting that you being unbiased. I was simply stating that looking at it evidence and current state of affairs objectively, you cant disagree with two things.
1) Israel has the right to defend themselves, when attacked on their own land, but in a responsible, measured, and justified manner. 2) They are clearly defending themselves 3) There are only 2 ways you can call their defensive offensives justified, measured and responsible. The first is if you valued an Israeli life 100 times more than you valued a Palestinian life. That would make you biased. The second would be if you didnt know what you were talking about. That would make you ignorant. Lets start with what we both agree with. Hamas is all for the destruction of Israel. As a result, they will never want to negotiate peace with Israel. So, until Hamas is no longer in power, peace talks can't go on. You can also assume that as long as Hamas is in power, rocket attacks into Israel will continue. And so, Israel has a right to defend themselves. However, killing 100 Palestinians for every Israeli that dies is hardly measured. Neither is cutting off 1.4 million from basic nessesities. And for the record, of the 5000+ rockets that have been fired into Israel since 2000, the majority end up in fields. You can make the assumption that for everyday rockets keep pouring into Israel, there is a less than 1% a Israeli will die. In other words, even if one is stupid enough to think that cutting of Water, Electricity and food from Palestians will reduce the chance that someone in Israel will die from a rocket, is it justified, measured or responsible? It is not. IF you can unbiasedly and objectively look at the situations and tell me otherwise, please go ahead and explain it for me |
| I'm feeling swamped with work right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Fri Jan 25, 2008 @ 6:38pm |
 Coolness: 685635 | 1) Israel has the right to defend themselves, when attacked on their own land, but in a responsible, measured, and justified manner.
I think you're forgetting the part where Israel as we know it is actually an illegal occupation, and these people they are "defending" themselves from are the people that they've forcibly evicted from their homes and forced into poverty and persecuted at every possible turn. |
| I'm feeling fuckin' crazy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Anarkoid replied on Fri Jan 25, 2008 @ 8:53pm |
| Coolness: 192720 | I don't defend the Israelis, I mean in my opinion Israelis and Palestinian might be of two different religion and people but the both suffer from the same flaws, they both have serious problems seeing the other side point of view ( and when I say problems I mean they don't even try. I for one would be for a Jerusalem under international Jurisdiction and not under either the Palestinian or the Israelis control.
However, what I am saying is that if I was in the situation of the Israelis I would probably think the same way they do, that said if I was in the situation of the Palestinians i would also most probably thing the way the Palestinians think. My personnal position on that is that an balanced solution should be found, I think that the border of 1967 should be respected and that colonies inside the west bank should be dismantled, I have nothing against the idea of a wall between Palestine and Israel, but not the way it is now, because obviously the resulting Palestinian state would not be in my opinion viable. Sadly however, it is very hard for the Israelis to trust the Palestinian when bus are blown away with tens of people inside it exactly like it is hard for Palestinian to trust Israelis when the Israelis don't really care fon collateral damages when attacking militants from the Hamas (and causing many innocent casualties in the process). |
| I'm feeling happy and optimistic right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Sat Jan 26, 2008 @ 5:25am |
| Coolness: 145245 | Originally Posted By SCREWHEAD
1) ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, WHEN ATTACKED ON THEIR OWN LAND, BUT IN A RESPONSIBLE, MEASURED, AND JUSTIFIED MANNER. I THINK YOU'RE FORGETTING THE PART WHERE ISRAEL AS WE KNOW IT IS ACTUALLY AN ILLEGAL OCCUPATION, AND THESE PEOPLE THEY ARE "DEFENDING" THEMSELVES FROM ARE THE PEOPLE THAT THEY'VE FORCIBLY EVICTED FROM THEIR HOMES AND FORCED INTO POVERTY AND PERSECUTED AT EVERY POSSIBLE TURN. i don't agree with this fred, if your saying that israel as israel 'proper' (pre 1967 borders) is an illegal occupation you are being impractical and in some senses taking on hamas' position that israel does not have right to exist. I want to be clear i'm not saying your being anti semitic (let us not get mired in that when discussing this) however we can either admit both sides the right to have a state or we seem to be in the decidedly inconvienient position of having to say one side must annhilate the other, we have to take the two state track, to deny israel the right to exist does not further that objective. |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Sat Jan 26, 2008 @ 10:06am |
| Coolness: 685635 | Both sides deffinitley have a right to have their own state.
But do I think that that state should be taken by military force? No. Do I think that state should be kept by constant bloodshed? No. Do I think that the state should be kept by walling out the palestinians and denying them food and suplies that are essential for survival? By keeping this wall armed/patrolled, essentially jailing the palestinians in these inhumane conditions? By essentially FORCING them to have to use bombs and buldozers to be able to go out and get some milk and rice? Fuck no. In my honest oppinion, the way Israel is "behaving" right now is absolutely unacceptable. And, unfortunately, that all goes back to the fact that they have forcibly removed the original population from the land that they are illegaly occupying, much in the same way that Canada and the USA forced out and slaughtered the natives. 300 years later, very few people remember that this land we live on is, essentially, an illegal occupation in the same sence. And is what we did to the natives right? Fuck no. But that was a LONG time ago, way before the globalised and wired world we live in now, where everyone can see everything as it happens and the whole world can scrutinize something minutes after it occurs, and if we'd try to do what we did to the natives then in this modern time, we'd be accused of mass-genocide. Israel needs to stop being so egocentric, take a look at what they're doing to others, and maybe remember the time they were walled away in concentration camps with scarce nourishment and armed guards keeping them from escaping. |
| I'm feeling fuckin' crazy right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Gamos replied on Sat Jan 26, 2008 @ 9:38pm |
| Coolness: 93540 | Originally Posted By SCREWHEAD
1) ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, WHEN ATTACKED ON THEIR OWN LAND, BUT IN A RESPONSIBLE, MEASURED, AND JUSTIFIED MANNER. I THINK YOU'RE FORGETTING THE PART WHERE ISRAEL AS WE KNOW IT IS ACTUALLY AN ILLEGAL OCCUPATION, AND THESE PEOPLE THEY ARE "DEFENDING" THEMSELVES FROM ARE THE PEOPLE THAT THEY'VE FORCIBLY EVICTED FROM THEIR HOMES AND FORCED INTO POVERTY AND PERSECUTED AT EVERY POSSIBLE TURN. Sort of. Except that technically Hamas is firing rockets into Israel proper and Israel has left gaza except for border control, air control and water control, so in a sense there is no illegal occupation of Gaza...and Israel is simply defending themselves from rocket attacks It was my opinion as well that it was not defense, but the Israeli ambassador corrected me on that last week. |
| I'm feeling swamped with work right now.. | |
Palestinians Stage Breakout In Gaza
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