Is The Underground Over ?
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Intoccabile a répondu le Sat 17 Jan, 2009 @ 9:33pm |
 Coolness: 64785 | Extremely interesting.
" A conversation chaired by music critic Simon Reynolds examined how the notion of subculture has become outmoded through the overexposure afforded by the internet and the media’s rapid assimilation of the marginal. This panel also surveyed the past, present and future of unpopular culture and explores the possibility of alternatives to ‘alternative’. " Participants : Simon Reynolds (Music critic) Cosey Fanni Tutti (Artist) Penny Martin (Rootstein Hopkins Chair of Fashion Imagery, London College of Fashion) Claire Titley (Music Promoter, ‘Upset the Rhythm’) Link to the mp3 : [ www.friezeartfair.com ] |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Nathan a répondu le Sat 17 Jan, 2009 @ 10:00pm |
 Coolness: 166480 | the link doesn't work for me...but it's mos def an interesting subject...where do you draw the line between popular and underground? and does exposure make a style of music not-underground, or does it just make the underground music have a larger fandbase...
i like to differentiate betwen famous and infamous, though they basically mean the same thing (see: flammable and inflammable) but there's a slightly different connotation to each...example: a pop artist who becomes well known is famous; an 'underground' artist who becomes well known is infamous. i like to think that there is still an underground, and until hardcore and industrial and noise get played on mix 96 and becomes as commercially viable as britney spears, it's still underground. either way, it's the type of theory that's near impossible to prove or disprove. maybe there should be a album sales limit, like: you sold more than 100,000 copies of your album? you pop-star motherfucker! :P |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» cutterhead a répondu le Sat 17 Jan, 2009 @ 10:07pm |
 Coolness: 131530 | the same happened with the hacker culture.
it got POORLY mainstream, people got lazy, the whole thing got divised and ended up inneffective. Mise À Jour » cutterhead a écrit sur Sat 17 Jan, 2009 @ 10:11pm the "whole" itself isnt welcoming the new generation like it should, too much "classes" and "ranks", imo. and on top the new kids dont care till they get ego confronted and then "tune in" to be cool like the others. then the cycle repeats |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» fishead a répondu le Sat 17 Jan, 2009 @ 10:08pm |
 Coolness: 75605 | I think the underground will always be around. Media saturation does have an effect, but it's not like many people who heard about the Nymphomatriarch album when it was written up in Playboy and discussed on late-night talk shows actually went out and bought the thing (or even bothered to download it)...
The fact is, that even some of the most known artists in electronic music (Aphex Twin, Squarepusher, Autechre, Venetian Snares, Lenny Dee, Jeff Mills etc...) are far from being household names in mainstream culture... Cosey Fanni Tutti, who is featured on the panel, should be able to attest to that. She was involved in one of the most controversial/notorious/infamous underground music projects of all time... and it's probably fair to say that only a very slim percentage of those who have heard of Throbbing Gristle really have any idea of what the group was about... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» cutterhead a répondu le Sat 17 Jan, 2009 @ 10:20pm |
| Coolness: 131530 | "over" , doesnt mean "gone" too, i agree it will be around too, when it reach that point normally its there to stay. but being complacent about how things are and letting the "scene" decide directions to take isnt original, key individuals , originals are more than always welcome and needed.
by key individuals i mean everyone wanting to stand out, and are prepare to risk the carreer for the big win. this is what keeps scene alive. i know lots of folks here that are really commited, and honestly we need more. Mise À Jour » cutterhead a écrit sur Sat 17 Jan, 2009 @ 10:22pm of welcoming and commited members that is... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini a répondu le Sat 17 Jan, 2009 @ 10:21pm |
 Coolness: 145135 | i see the potential for underground culture as still being un tapped, all around the world there still lot's of people who have yet to experience it,
underground culture for me at least has always been intimately linked with the notion of DIY (do it yourself) it's just a question of what music, clothes, haircuts, drugs, and 'life style ethos' you want to give it. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» fishead a répondu le Sat 17 Jan, 2009 @ 10:40pm |
| Coolness: 75605 | the great thing about the underground is that there's always someone doing something crazy that no one knows about... it's always been that way, and likely always will... people with their ears to the ground will always discover things before the media does... in fact, there's a case to be made that the media observes the habits of 'taste-making' demographics before they even bother to report on new trends... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss a répondu le Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 4:10am |
 Coolness: 129655 | I think the internet killed the underground
Technically it stopped existing as soon as everyone had access to the same information, Back in the day, the djs would buy tracks as 12"'s, which always came out first, So the djs were the guys who had all the freshest most underground shit before everyone. Now, all that info is available to the general public, music is realeased on the net before its pressed on vinyl The point is, nothing is "underground" anymore I can become a master of the Dubstep genre in a click of a mouse. It less than a minute I can name all the latest producers and who's hot and who isn't. Same goes for Gabber, Dnb or Techno (although techno already went mainstream in the early 90s, so technically it stopped counting as underground when that happened). Times have changed and I find it hilarious that people still want to adopt that arrogant elistist attitude like they know something no one else does. There are only 2 types of music at the end of the day, GOOD music and BAD music |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Mico a répondu le Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 5:53pm |
 Coolness: 150395 | To a certain degree I agree with you that the internet has a hand in making this information available to the general public easier, but I don't believe that the internet killed the underground, or even with the statement "the underground is dead."
Thanks to the internet, yes, I can, and have become aware, or inform myself of underground movements (in this case music). But that doesn't mean that just because I have access to these movements via the internet that it's suddenly mainstream, or aboveground. Just as I would have to put my ear to the street, the find the beat, so to speak, finding music that is underground online is just the same. It exists in the society, but it is still hidden in its recesses, and the only way to find out about it is through word of mouth, like it always has been, or some serious research. For example: Yes, I can type in Freetekno into google and get a 200k+ hits. But what's the ratio between how many people have heard the term Freetekno outside electronic music circles, as opposed Pop music or Gangster Rap? Ultimately, what I believe is that anything that was once underground, like graffiti, hip-hop, and even raves, eventually rise up, and become mainstream. But that doesn't mean that there isn't something going on, somewhere which none of us have never heard about it. The only thing the internet (media) has done to these movements, has made their assimilation in to mainstream culture quicker. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss a répondu le Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 6:56pm |
| Coolness: 129655 | Good point
There's always going to be something new and "underground" coming up because that is the very nature of music which always in constant evolution. I'd just have a hard time walking around telling people their not "underground" enough because they don't play what my idea of underground is. Its a pretentious attitude to have. The irony in it all is that as soon as something "underground" does become popular, its not longer "good" somehow, which dosen't make sense Besides what does "underground" really mean nowadays? Ask a techno dj he'll tell you its *insert list of techno producers* while a dubstep dj will tell you something else *insert list of dubstep producers* That being said, I do have and will continue to have respect for any dj that tries to play something out of the mainstream, weather new or old. When I dj an event, weather a more mainstream one or an underground one, I always combine stuff people know with the more "underground" stuff I want them to discover. There's always a bit of both, so its hard for me to put myself in either category, but I always try to pick GOOD music. And to me thats all that really matters at the end of the day |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» sabinonstop a répondu le Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 7:38pm |
 Coolness: 92365 | Originally Posted By BLISSS
Good point There's always going to be something new and "underground" coming up because that is the very nature of music which always in constant evolution. I'd just have a hard time walking around telling people their not "underground" enough because they don't play what my idea of underground is. Its a pretentious attitude to have. The irony in it all is that as soon as something "underground" does become popular, its not longer "good" somehow, which dosen't make sense Besides what does "underground" really mean nowadays? Ask a techno dj he'll tell you its *insert list of techno producers* while a dubstep dj will tell you something else *insert list of dubstep producers* That being said, I do have and will continue to have respect for any dj that tries to play something out of the mainstream, weather new or old. When I dj an event, weather a more mainstream one or an underground one, I always combine stuff people know with the more "underground" stuff I want them to discover. There's always a bit of both, so its hard for me to put myself in either category, but I always try to pick GOOD music. And to me thats all that really matters at the end of the day Geat quote i agree 100% !!! |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» WhiteLight a répondu le Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 9:47pm |
 Coolness: 50315 | My question is, what does "underground" really stands for? Is there a limit to what we can call underground, and what is this limit? Is there something between "underground" and "mainstream"?
Didn't watch the video, but probably will, since I like what Fanni Tutti and her band brought to music in general... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Intoccabile a répondu le Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 10:41pm |
| Coolness: 64785 | Great contributions, everyone.
Whitelight, you ask a very simple question, yet this question might prove to be the most essential one : what does underground really stand for, what is the meaning of the term underground ? I believe that, in a conversation such as the one we're all having, the meaning of the term underground shouldn't be taken for granted. It's very important to make that extra effort to clarify the notion. You ask : is there a limit to what we call underground ? This is a very pertinent question. Indeed, what is the extension of that notion ? What genres could be subsumed under it ? I for one believe that it is possible to use " underground " as a stylistic concept. Underground can be used to denote a " style " ( not a " genre " ) of music. Underground, as a style of music, can be defined in syntactic, morphologic, semantic and pragmatic terms. I for one certainly don't like to rigidly oppose underground to mainstream. I think that even though mainstream and underground are distinct notions there is some degree of fluidity between them. I think that our collective use of the term underground, today, is quite problematic and that we should take the time to reflect on the validity of the notion in order to determine if our use of the term is justified. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» giorgio_moisi a répondu le Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 10:47pm |
 Coolness: 55335 | Maggot cheese is underground. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss a répondu le Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 11:11pm |
| Coolness: 129655 | Originally Posted By INTOCCABILE
I for one certainly don't like to rigidly oppose underground to mainstream. I think that even though mainstream and underground are distinct notions there is some degree of fluidity between them. I think that our collective use of the term underground, today, is quite problematic and that we should take the time to reflect on the validity of the notion in order to determine if our use of the term is justified. I agree, I for one don't like to go around throwing the term "underground" because even though I do play and follow some styles of "underground" music, I'd be lying if I said I only played stuff no one knows. Although I must say I have done more underground sets for more mainstream crowds and its gone very well, and I've played more accessible sets to more underground crowds and its gone very well. I think what it comes down to is good music Being "underground" dosen't automatically make your music good either, there's loads of "underground" thats just really bad music period (there's a reason why some music remains unknown, and trust me its for the better) When I was younger, "underground" meant stuff that wasn't played on the radio, stuff that was not widely known, but at least back then (in the 80s/early 90s) radios still played some half decent stuff and if you were a really good producer you still had a chance. Nowadays, forget it, its so overcommercialized to the point that there is so little new music that gets played on the radio (4 new songs a month or something on most major US radios), with 99% of it really being crap. So I don't think its that hard to be "underground" either if the only condition is that the music that you play is not mainstream at that given time. Mise À Jour » Blisss a écrit sur Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 11:11pm Sample of requests you'd get djing a "normal" radio listening crowd if you played tonight
hey Dj do you have? Lady Gaga? Madonna? Lady Gaga? Do you have anymore Madonna? What about Lady Gaga? Beyonce? Lady Gaga? Play some more Madonna... Dj: Hummmm...Have you heard anything else thats new that you like? Normal person: Lady Gaga's good |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead a répondu le Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 11:41pm |
 Coolness: 685525 | One of the main differences between 'underground' and 'mainstream' is that the underground music tends to be more true to the producers; they can experiment and do all sorts of stuff no one would even think about and people will totally dig it, whereas mainstream tends to be more about following an established formula and sucking radio-dick for cash..
Best example; Pendulum. Before a record deal with Warner: After getting signed to Warner: It's the same guys! One is done because they love music, one is done because they want radio-play and got told to make music that emo teenagers can associate with (and that's not even speculation; one of the guys from Pendulum outright said on Dogs on Acid that they were sick and tired of not making any money and that the DnB scene can go fuck itself, they want to make some money) |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Blisss a répondu le Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 11:53pm |
| Coolness: 129655 | You got a good point there
Although I don't think a lot of artists intentionally end up that way Often they get approached by a big label because they've gotten noticed They sign a deal and from that point on they realize that they have to meet all kinds of expectations All of a sudden all these PR people telling what to wear, how to sound They know if they don't do it, the label will drop them and promote someone else more willing to "play game" Its a catch 22 Why do you think so many artists hate the music industry and are going independent. It sucks the creativity right out of you |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Mico a répondu le Sun 18 Jan, 2009 @ 11:54pm |
| Coolness: 150395 | Originally Posted By GIORGIO_MOISI
Maggot cheese is underground. My grandma is underground. Originally Posted By blisss
I'd just have a hard time walking around telling people their not "underground" enough because they don't play what my idea of underground is. Its a pretentious attitude to have. The irony in it all is that as soon as something "underground" does become popular, its not longer "good" somehow, which dosen't make sense What is Good, in terms of quality, it's irrelevant whether it's mainstream or not. As for defining "Underground", the host quoted a paper which said that "Underground" could signify: - Means of Production: Independent Labels, Fanzines. - Culturally Marginal: Think of Subcultures. Ethnic, Sexual minorities. Bohemian. - Extremist: Political motivation. Anti-Pop. The lines, however, can become somewhat blurred when, like the host mentioned, when you get a group like Rage Against The Machine, who have strong political motivations which could be considered underground, in the sense of resistance, and yet they are apart of a major label, that make "rather conventional Rock music." Or perhaps Grime, which doesn't have any sort of political motivation, but has a minority orientated audience, and that it doesn't get much access to main stream media. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Nathan a répondu le Mon 19 Jan, 2009 @ 12:02am |
| Coolness: 166480 | D) all of the above
as long as there is formulaic commercial shit, there will be an underground. when the so-called underground artist goes platinum, another dirty unknown artist will create a new extreme in music, and rise up. and so on... it's true that undrgrnd can be about style, but it's also an ideology. and being 'underground' (a fine buzz word :P ) is only pretensious if you flaunt it... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Mutante a répondu le Mon 19 Jan, 2009 @ 1:18am |
 Coolness: 76115 | from Spicelab - spy vs spice album
the speed freak - reload your shooters that some french people consider "commercial" in france |
Is The Underground Over ?
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