Mdma - How Much Is Too Much?
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» PrettyKittie23 replied on Fri Nov 30, 2007 @ 5:20pm |
 Coolness: 34305 | Mirror is insightful and should talk to Prodigy Princess who practices Homeopathy.
It is psychologically addictive, particularily if you suffer drom depression but it actually leaves you more depressed after since you can 'use up' your body's seratonin reserves. Studies have shown that regular XTC users actually take longer to develop seratonin, so you 'arn't happy' for longer and longer periods. SO - pick your occassions, one night when you doin something really special! Or don't indulge at all as has been suggested~ Happy Friday! |
| I'm feeling the weekend right now.. | |
| Good [+2]Toggle ReplyLink» Horus replied on Fri Nov 30, 2007 @ 5:26pm |
 Coolness: 40750 | Or... You could read pretty much all the new research on MDMA and brain damage and conclude that it happens in one of 2 ways: through oxidative stress, which can be remedied by a good dose of the extremely health-enhancing antioxidant called Alpha Lipoic Acid, OR through the depletion of serotonin reserves, which leaves dopamin free to enter the serotonin receptor site (or release site?) where it causes damage, which is likely the cause of the abovementioned oxidative stress damage. This is easily remedied by smart use of 5-hydroxytryptophan, which is a natural amino acid, and a direct, one-step-removed, precursor to serotonin and proven to quickly replenish stores or prevent depletion in the first place.
:) Update » Horus wrote on Wed Dec 5, 2007 @ 1:22pm UPDATE
How do you guys figure you have enough? Me, I look at my pupils and when they are fully dilated is when I know I don't need any more. Is that a good way to measure? How do YOU do it? |
| I'm feeling pretty damn good right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» PrettyKittie23 replied on Fri Dec 7, 2007 @ 3:31pm |
| Coolness: 34305 | you know what else causes brain damage?
car exhaust, and jet fuel and chemical sweeteners and peanuts(in small children) and honey (also in small children) and cabin pressure in airplanes and the chemical in hi-lighters and sharpies..... It's a wonder we got out of this earth with any damn brain cells left at all!! |
| I'm feeling nearly free! right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» lacasse.bob replied on Mon Dec 17, 2007 @ 4:05pm |
 Coolness: 60105 | Originally Posted By HORUS
Or... You could read pretty much all the new research on MDMA and brain damage and conclude that it happens in one of 2 ways: through oxidative stress, which can be remedied by a good dose of the extremely health-enhancing antioxidant called Alpha Lipoic Acid, OR through the depletion of serotonin reserves, which leaves dopamin free to enter the serotonin receptor site (or release site?) where it causes damage, which is likely the cause of the abovementioned oxidative stress damage. This is easily remedied by smart use of 5-hydroxytryptophan, which is a natural amino acid, and a direct, one-step-removed, precursor to serotonin and proven to quickly replenish stores or prevent depletion in the first place. :) anti-oxydants are the key of happy-poppin' |
| I'm feeling lonely right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Horus replied on Tue Dec 18, 2007 @ 3:32pm |
| Coolness: 40750 | So how can you guys tell when you've had enough E? Pupils? Nystagmus? Lip-Chewing? What's your "I'm there" telltale? |
| I'm feeling unded zombie of doom right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Daf replied on Tue Dec 18, 2007 @ 3:36pm |
 Coolness: 185355 | quand mon chum commence à halluciner ces amis d'enfance et qui m'appele par leur nom. Jme dis que stais trop...
jpensais jamais que ça se pouvais halluciner sur de le E. |
| I'm feeling kiss me, im shitface right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Horus replied on Tue Dec 18, 2007 @ 3:49pm |
| Coolness: 40750 | Jme suis jamais rendu là... D'habitude je max à 3 pillz mais à 240lbs c'est pas super énorme... d'un autre côté, je tiens à mes neurones... ;) |
| I'm feeling unded zombie of doom right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Daf replied on Tue Dec 18, 2007 @ 4:07pm |
| Coolness: 185355 | hehe wais, on en avais fait 5 et demi chaque... moi j'ai bien tripper, je veux dire ça allais ben! hehe mais lui vers la fin stais inquiètant, je commencais quasiment a badtripper à le voir ! |
| I'm feeling kiss me, im shitface right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Horus replied on Tue Dec 18, 2007 @ 4:18pm |
| Coolness: 40750 | Ouf... 5 et demie hein? C'est hardcore ça...
Je sais que passé une certaine quantité ça donne plus rien, mais là j'ai l'impression qu'avec 3 ptites pilous je suis un peu "light" et que j'aurais probablement un meilleur trip avec un peu plus... MORE DRUGS!! MOOOOOOOOOOORE DRUGS!!!!!! J/K... :-O |
| I'm feeling unded zombie of doom right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» earthyspirit replied on Mon Dec 24, 2007 @ 3:05pm |
 Coolness: 229675 | 1 dose is one dose is one dose.
A dose is based on body wieght, most pills are within 15% of a standard body wieght dosage and a full dose will release all the seratonin available. Afterwards one must wait three to four weeks before taking another full dose. This is simply obvious and anyone who continually takes more e than a SINGLE DOSE is wasting e and endangering themselves. 1 dose. 1 time a month. Use St. Johns Wort and avoid 5HTP. 5HTP is never added to the stomach or body as a direct chemical. It enters the body as tryptophan and is later converted into 5htp during the digestion and transit process. When placing 5htp into the body directly we are in fact doing a confusing thing to the system and creating a sort of aftershock to the mdma/extasy, the body treats 5htp in the stomach in weird ways, unlike tryptophan. Eat bananas, turkey, etc. things that have 5htp precursor in them, do NOT ingest 5htp directly. You friend in these things is Saint Johns Wort/Millipertuis. |
| I'm feeling evun69 right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Horus replied on Mon Dec 24, 2007 @ 4:09pm |
| Coolness: 40750 | Well I know for a fact that 5-htp replenishes serotonin quickly. As a matter of fact, after a long night of ecstasy, taking 5-htp induces in me a "serotonin flood", you know that part of an E trip when you get to feel good, but soooo relaxed you could sleep. There is some good scientific evidence that depleting serotonin stores is one thing you really want to avoid if you are to protect yourself. 5-htp is 5 to 10 times better than tryptophan at replenishing serotonin, that is why it is used.
I am not trying to discredit you unOsev, but only to see more clearly in this matter, where science has not deemed extremely important to shed all the light possible. Can you provide more information on tryptophan being better than 5-htp? Is it just a stomach thing or a brain thing? I'm ready to do some weird things to my stomach in order to protect my brain, for sure. I am also quite confused as to the dose and bodyweight thing, as being 240lbs makes me roughly double the weight of a normal raver... So for me 3 good pills is equivalent to 1.5 in a normal person, which is far from a humongous amount. Do you recommend the consumptionof tryptophan during the Experience? |
| I'm feeling sooooomaaaaaaaaaaa right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» lacasse.bob replied on Mon Dec 24, 2007 @ 7:58pm |
| Coolness: 60105 | Saint-John's Worth is probably a pretty good helper after taking MD but I'd even more suggest Ginkgo Biloba, before, during, and after the trip, cause it also has a very effective anti-oxydant action. that great tree coming from the time of the dinosuars is really the Ravers best friend !
Something also about tryptophan is that it's mostly a construction block to 5-htp, but it needs Tryptophan Hydroxylase (TPH) enzyme build it up, TPH is pretty limited and incapacited by oxydative stress induced by mdma. THat makes me tend toward 5-htp better than triptophan... but all that makes me even more tend toward anti-oydants in general, it's always better to prevent than to cure... [ www.erowid.org ] --- mdma and anti-oxydants |
| I'm feeling lonely right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» juju replied on Mon Dec 24, 2007 @ 9:56pm |
 Coolness: 60360 | I've been reading the drug section for a while, and jeezus, some of the posters go a little too far with their assumptions. Aren't drug studies supposed to be neutral and accurate sources of information (ideally tested on humans) made to promote public safety and education? Because what I see is government-funded research purposely conducted to support their anti-drug campaign. When I read some of these posts, I can't help but think that their message is finally getting through, because so many are now taking the hazards of drugs to excessive proportions. For example, every cap of mdma is said to cause permanent loss of neurotransmitters, but is it enough for you to notice a difference? I highly doubt it! In most cases, when the damage becomes visible, other drugs are usually involved. Most people here shouldn't feel so concerned by the things they read cause it doesn't even apply to them. In order for mdma (alone) to affect you as described in the previously quoted studies, you'd have to constantly abuse it for a very long period of time. My 2 cents
Oh, here's a good read: [ www.cbc.ca ] |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» earthyspirit replied on Tue Dec 25, 2007 @ 12:36am |
| Coolness: 229675 | [ www.dancesafe.org ]
Hydrogen Peroxide next to your seratonin axon is something to avoid. SSRI's help do that. St Johns Wort is one. It is illustrated in the above slideshow. I did quite a bit of research a while bac on the subject of 5htp and tryptophan etc. and though I don't have the adress of the info in my head atm.. I remember some things.. 5htp is something that never naturally enters the stomach, it is not found in foods and the body sees it in the same way it sees mdma, as an alien. Neurotoxicity occurs fromdophamine entering a part of the brain not equipped to deal with it. It tries to break the dophamine down, but because it is not supposed to have to do so in that area of the breain, the result is hydrogen peroxide. Thats HAIR BLEACH. IN YOUR BRAIN. this is because the part of the brain was not hard wired to do ANYTHING to dophamine because its not supposed to EVER go to that place. This is a simile to 5htp in the stomach. The stomach is used to 5htp precursors in the stomach, its not used to 5htp. So in adding 5htp direct, we're basically asking the body to invent new procoesses and we're side stepping natural neutral. We're sort of repeating the mdma error. 5htp does not protect your brain IN ANY WAY. Look at it this way... Seratonin is fuel for sensation. MDMA is a gas pedal for seratonin. a full dose uses the WHOLE tank. Dophamine is oil in the engine. MDMA amps the oil flow up to above average. People smoke pot also.. REALLY adding more oil. mor dophamine. The engine.. the receptors get TIRED and dont accept either oil or gas. The oil and gas keep flowing anyway, but can't get into their normal places. The reuptakes are for GAS ONLY. Seratonin. Dophamine, OIL gets into them when the brain is tired, the receptors are closed. So.. laden with gas and oil the reuptakes try to exaust the excess.. the engine say WHOAH.. oil! not supposed to BE HERE!! Go away dophamine! the engine busts up the oil, the oil becomes toxic next to the gas tank, seratonin axons. One tiny bleach bubble at a time.. the seratonin axon gets baconized.. melted. seratonin can't get out anymore as well as it should. 5htp is part of the gas which gasses the gas, its the fuel seratonin eats to be full of itself. 5htp does not block the reuptakes, it does not stop neurotoxicity in any way. 5htp is a way to help fuel the tank when its empty. BUT- like dophamine going somehwere its not supposed to be and then being handled imporperly.. 5htp will be handled in somewhat the same manner when entering the stomach. It's not meant to be found there.. its not native to the stomach and the code which runs the stomach is integrated into every part of the body.. if dophamine in the wrong place gets converted into acidic hydrogen peroxide.. what do you think happens when we introduce another item into the game where its not supposed to be. St Johns Wort is an SSRI, a reuptake inhibitor. It plugs the door which the dophamine is not supposed to enter, and PROTECTS the seratonin axons. Though, the extent of the protection is keyed into the dosage and timing. When is as important as how much. Personally I never feel the loss of my seratonin after a trip so trying to ramp up my refresh rate on the seratonin faster than a normal waiting period of say one month is something i never do. I would rather truth my body to deal with fruits and vegetables which contain all the necessities for 5htp production than to put the 5htp into a place where its going to begin recoding my body in unpredictable ways.. Though.. I might plug 5htp in order to avoid the stomach altogether. and yes, antioxidents are ALWAYS good. all the time, any time. But they don't do what an SSRI does. this sort of brings us to the comprehension of whats happening when one smokes too much pot.. SAME thing. same channel, same neurotoxicity. Hydrogen peroxide and melted seratonin axons. |
| I'm feeling evun69 right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» lacasse.bob replied on Tue Dec 25, 2007 @ 1:29am |
| Coolness: 60105 | Alright, alright I agree with all that, altough... if StJohnsWorth is a good thing after the trip, it ain't as good (to me) as protecting all those serotonin receptors from that evil hydrogen peroxide DURING the moment the mdma is in the brain and generates H2O2 which eventually destroys (partly or totaly) neurons, anti-oxydants do...
anyway, we know now that there are several ways to protect ourselves from mdma induced neurotoxicity, so let's just try to let our friends know and share this knowledge so that every one can party safely. Update » lacasse.bob wrote on Tue Dec 25, 2007 @ 1:30am just like that... i thought StJohnsWorth was a mild IMAO... |
| I'm feeling lonely right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» system_glitch replied on Tue Dec 25, 2007 @ 9:16am |
 Coolness: 162500 | IMAO debate, part 2.
Let the fight begin ;) |
| I'm feeling toxic right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» earthyspirit replied on Tue Dec 25, 2007 @ 3:41pm |
| Coolness: 229675 | pow.. kaboom. to the moon. :D merry christmas. |
| I'm feeling evun69 right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» WassUpOnEarth replied on Wed Dec 26, 2007 @ 2:52pm |
 Coolness: 47870 | Le H202 est un puissant oxydant. Si c'est vrai que la consommation de MD produit du peroxyde dans le cerveau, c'est peut-être vrai qu'un anti-oxydant fait une grosse partie de la job pour protéger nos précieux neurones!! |
| I'm feeling honky-chunky right now.. | |
| Good [+3]Toggle ReplyLink» Horus replied on Sun Dec 30, 2007 @ 11:57pm |
| Coolness: 40750 | Yeah OK so, I apologize for taking so long to get back to you guys, I had to brush up on my neurology. I hadn't studied this stuff in about 10 years and expected to find new ground-breaking research and science on the topic. I am disappointed, as the research seems to not have advanced at all in the last 10 years or so. Anyway, here goes:
Basically SSRI's are a pretty bad idea when taking ecstasy, and 5-HTP is a GREAT idea. Here is why: Oxidative stress occurs in the presynaptic cell, the one which releases the serotonin, when dopamine enters it. Dopamine does not normally enter presynaptic serotonin neurons but MDMA forces the serotonin reuptake pump to function in reverse, whereby it dumps the serotonin out. This is fine until there is no more serotonin in the neuron, and the pump, functioning in reverse, does something pretty weird: it then pumps dopamine into the neuron. This is how the serotonin enters the neuron and wreaks havoc, generating oxidative stress through the action of MAO's (MAO-B in this case). Let me be very clear about this: AS LONG AS THERE IS SEROTONIN BEING RELEASED BY THE NEURONS INTO THE SYNAPSE, DOPAMINE IS UNABLE TO ENTER AND TRIGGER OXIDATIVE DAMAGE. So what you need in order to protect your brain is to make sure that you DON'T RUN OUT OF SEROTONIN. Interestingly, that is also what will keep you feeling GOOD. Of course, humongous amounts of serotonin might result in serotonin syndrome, which is no fun. Potentially deadly of course. 5-htp is a direct precursor to serotonin and will greatly increase production within an hour of oral administration. So it can successfully be used DURING the ecstasy experience in order to prolong and improve the quality of the experience. 5-htp overdose can be lethal, though, so use some degree of common sense. More on that later. SSRI's prevent the serotonin-reuptake pump from releasing the serotonin into the synapse. This is the main "enjoyable" Effect of MDMA. By taking a SSRI you basically cancel out the good effects of MDMA but cancel out its ability to damage your brain too. Of course, a case can be made for SSRI's 3-4 hours into the MDMA experience, but I don't know about you, that's when my fun is just beginning... The second line of protection has been clearly stated by lacasse.bob who recommends the ultimate anti-oxidant, called alpha lipoic acid, as a protection against oxidative stress should dopamine enter the serotonin axon. It should be noted that no other antioxidant compares in this purpose. Now in practical use, ALA should not be taken on an empty stomach, because it can drastically lower blood sugar levels, and believe me, you don't need that while dancing the night away. Also, for some people such as myself, ALA on an empty stomach creates a very dislikable burning sensation. I have not experienced this while on E and frankly, I am sure I don't want to. Back to 5-htp. Normal day-to-day doses of 5-htp should be about 100mg. For me, taking 250mg every single day is simply too much. Something weird happens to my digestive system and after some days I don't feel so good, I get shaky, cold and sweaty at the same time. Yes, this is the onset of serotonin syndrome. During an ecstasy experience, I would recommend not more than 100mg per dose, maybe 2 doses during the night. This compares favorably to my single-shot 250mg dose, although I am much larger than most people on this forum. Perhaps people experimenting with this will discover that they can use much much larger amounts of 5-htp than under normal circumstances. It would certainly make sense, since serotonin is getting depleted at a much higher rate than normal, that it would be OK to use more 5-htp than normal. But the last thing we need is people going to the hospital from 5-htp though, so proceed carefully. I plan on having capsules filled with 100mg 5-htp and 100mg Na-r-ALA (equivalent to 50mg r-ALA), and the rest with vitamin C with me at Soma. If you are interested, say hi and I might have some extra for you guys. I'm easy to spot, I look like I spent the last 15 years lifting weights, taking steroids and eating farm animals. :) |
| I'm feeling sooooomaaaaaaaaaaa right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» lacasse.bob replied on Mon Dec 31, 2007 @ 12:54pm |
| Coolness: 60105 | Wow that was GOOD ! vraiment bon. c'était de la musique a mes oreilles du début à la fin, excellente synthèse vraiment !
à noter aussi que le 5-htp est un léger anti-oxydant... et aussi, je me repete un peu, le Ginkgo Biloba... je sais qu'il est particulièrement actif pour prendre soin du cerveau et du systeme sérétoninergique, entre autre parce que il est un puissant anti-oxydant, mais j'ai aussi lu qu'il pouvait favoriser la reparation ou regeneressance des réceptors de seorotnine, particulièrement chez les personnes agée dont les recepteur se sont endommagés avec le temps. C'est une excellente idée aussi de "distribuer" des anti-oxydants dans un party. |
| I'm feeling lonely right now.. | |
Mdma - How Much Is Too Much?
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